The life of everything

[Titortastic]

I have kind of an odd question i'm hoping to get some opinion on. However in order for me to ask it properly I have to preface the idea

In the book by Dr. Massimo Citro: The Basic Code of the Universe, he talks about the work of Cleve Backster and how he performed a polygraph test on a plant, after doing a series of tests where he watered the plant he noticed a small change in the test. Intrigued by this he continued and thought about if he burned the plant what the test would look like. After he had the mere thought of burning the plant he began to see big changes in the polygraph. Essentially notating that the plant registered his thoughts and intentions as negative and made an emotional response.

With that being said if it is true, How are we supposed to harmonize in a world that demands our constant consumption to survive? Even if we go completely vegan we are still unwittingly harming the lives of others to sustain ourselves. The plant uses sunlight for energy and consumes water to grow, but it doesn't necessarily harm anything in its processes.

Nature as I've come to understand it is filled with the destruction of life to sustain it. The ocean, the wild, the human condition. How am I to understand the balance of life if I cannot get past the innate destruction of nature? Is it simply a matter of perspective? Are we all collectively contributing to the overall destructive life patterns simply by creating new ones?

I guess this falls under the necessity of suffering; for without suffering how can we truly understand peace.

I don't know I was kind of hoping to develop some kind of conversation about this topic I find it unbelievably fascinating

It's all a hugely intricate and delicate system - meaning that everything is functionally related. Make an adjustment somewhere and the ecology will adjust to a new level though it may take time to show. It's easy and glib to talk about food chains and predator-prey curves but the whole thing rests on a delicately balanced steady state with a complex interplay of feedback loops regulating things.

For whatever reason, The Creator came up with a system to support the survival of organic processes - life, if you like - which, because of the way it works looks to adaptation and renewal. (In spiritual terms this is life-death-renewal or solve et coagula.)

The whole system will die in the end as all organic systems do at their various levels be they plants, people, cities, empires, humanity. Whether "coagula" follows (and something new is born) would be speculation.

I tend to look on humanity as the planet's cancer. It'll feed off its host until it destroys it. But...we're still part of that system. We're in a culture dish no less than the plant you speak of.

It was interesting for me to read Jay W Forrester's thinking on this but his books are hugely expensive so if you were interested, the library is the place - unless you're very rich, of course.
(He was a systems theorist and did a lot of work on urban renewal etc. So his work isn't founded on any spiritual current.)

♥

^^^ Well, you're right in just about every way. I would only add that economic growth and expansion is driven by profit. Unfortunately the greedy in the world (particularly governments let alone business) are happy to let people create debt to achieve it. Economies are increasingly based on debt.

Also, unfortunately, the known survivors are bacteria so when famine and malnourishment afflict enough people, Nature will weed Her garden all right.

Commenters so often succumb to naivety that "technology will find a solution... " At best it can be a sticking plaster. Because, as you say, world population doubles every so many years. If I remember it doubled every 40 years during the 20th century. But that's still bad. It's slower now particularly in the west for economic reasons - people can't afford children. I read that Greek native births have almost ceased thanks to the austerity imposed on Greece by the EU.

Trouble is, the people who pontificate, the scientists, religious freaks - LOVE to claim that declining births mean it'll be about 100 years before it doubles from now. Tell THAT to the NGOs and charities desperate to bring contraception to poorer countries where the birth rate is way above anything in the wealthier ones. Blame religion in part - the pontifax who declares contraception a sin. And this speculation, a false assurance, simply exacerbating the problem itself.

So as I see it the only way it can be contained is a pandemic of something deadly. With people globe-trotting far more these days it'll happen. It's inevitable.

An exponentially increasing population can take only so much from a finite resource.

♥

[CrystalSong]

Gratitude, sincerely thank and send love to all that you must destroy in order to survive yourself.
Do not take with thanklessness.

[Titortastic]

Originally Posted by Bohdiyana

One thing I find odd is all the scientists I have read on the subject state we will reach a point in population growth where human life is no longer sustainable on this planet. The earths human population doubles in about every 10-20 years and this trend shows no signs of slowing down or stopping. The weird part is there are no scientists arguing for zero population growth or to reduce the humans population growth on earth. I've read a bunch of their reports and listened to their lectures and you know what they always say? They say well the food will run out and so mass populations of humans will die off. In other words, we will reach some crazy level of population, then millions will die off due to lack of food, then rinse repeat? They are fine with this and they are supposed to be intelligent people? They leave out the fact that as humans grow in population, air, water, etc are all polluted and destroyed. Thousands of species of plant and animal life continue to become extinct. So it is not as simple as, well at some point there too many so a ton will die off and the ones who survive just start over.

It's like in the entire debate about global warming, I have never heard one person suggest we should lower the earths human population. Not one person! They say things like, well lets make cars use less gas, but in 10-20 years, there will be twice as many people driving cars, 10 million goes to 20 million then to 40 million, then 80 and on and on. The fix is ending this un-ending population growth, not making cars more fuel efficient.

But then our entire world economy is built on increasing everything so constant population growth feeds into this system. So nobody will speak out against it. If you could give people an incentive to only have 2 kids if they wanted kids, the earths human population would begin to decrease. Seems like an easy thing to do to me. But yea no one in charge is interested or cares.

It seems to me that our current perceptions about population are skewed in the way of social engineering and psychological warfare. We currently believe that you have to:
-go to school
-get a job
-get married
-get a house
-live out your life with your family

With that social standard, for every two people with a house of 3 children needs a minimum 1500 sq feet living space enclosed in a neighborhood with 1 acre of land surrounding. I don't believe that this structure is necessary to accommodate the needs of say 10 billion people residing on earth. If we somehow formed a necessary unity of the human populace (which seems extremely unlikely) the idea that space would be an issue is just a perspective farce.

The issue then becomes sustainability. I firmly believe the earth has everything we need to sustain ourselves provided we adapt to new changes appropriately. We don't have to all have electricity, that is a luxury, we don't all have to have our own space that is a luxury. I believe that putting limits on creation sets a precedent that i'm not willing to accept. I can however accept cooperation among all.

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

^^^ Well, you're right in just about every way. I would only add that economic growth and expansion is driven by profit. Unfortunately the greedy in the world (particularly governments let alone business) are happy to let people create debt to achieve it. Economies are increasingly based on debt.

Also, unfortunately, the known survivors are bacteria so when famine and malnourishment afflict enough people, Nature will weed Her garden all right.

Commenters so often succumb to naivety that "technology will find a solution... " At best it can be a sticking plaster. Because, as you say, world population doubles every so many years. If I remember it doubled every 40 years during the 20th century. But that's still bad. It's slower now particularly in the west for economic reasons - people can't afford children. I read that Greek native births have almost ceased thanks to the austerity imposed on Greece by the EU.

Trouble is, the people who pontificate, the scientists, religious freaks - LOVE to claim that declining births mean it'll be about 100 years before it doubles from now. Tell THAT to the NGOs and charities desperate to bring contraception to poorer countries where the birth rate is way above anything in the wealthier ones. Blame religion in part - the pontifax who declares contraception a sin. And this speculation, a false assurance, simply exacerbating the problem itself.

So as I see it the only way it can be contained is a pandemic of something deadly. With people globe-trotting far more these days it'll happen. It's inevitable.

An exponentially increasing population can take only so much from a finite resource.

♥

The way I see it government and other clandestine agencies are already setting population control schemes in place. Being a huge PR mess they aren't going to outright say this is our goal to reduce the population. Consider how much money goes to finding cures for cancer yet there is no cure, consider the mandatory vaccinations, the low fat high sugar diet craze, the influx of diabetes and heart related illnesses, fluoridated water supply, unregulated generic drug application, etc.

Its difficult for me to place blame on people in general. But I KNOW everyone is at fault. I just don't think any one person or group of people has everything in life right and its up to us to help others navigate life through cooperation and love.

Originally Posted by CrystalSong

Gratitude, sincerely thank and send love to all that you must destroy in order to survive yourself.
Do not take with thanklessness.

I've only recently acquired this novelty of thanking the universe for everything it has given me. I firmly believe now that giving thanks and showing appreciation is critical to the human condition.

however its extremely difficult for me to accept that what i'm doing is essentially cutting a comatose patient who appears dead to the senses but can still feel and then thanking them for allowing me to survive. It seems inhumanely barbaric to require the pain of others to sustain the life of another.

I'm curious if anyone has ever looked into water testing, where you have the three jars of water and rice, one jar you say I love you for a week, one jar you say I hate you and curse at it, and the other you completely ignore. It is interesting the results they give

[Titortastic]

Originally Posted by Bohdiyana

One thing I find odd is all the scientists I have read on the subject state we will reach a point in population growth where human life is no longer sustainable on this planet. The earths human population doubles in about every 10-20 years and this trend shows no signs of slowing down or stopping. The weird part is there are no scientists arguing for zero population growth or to reduce the humans population growth on earth. I've read a bunch of their reports and listened to their lectures and you know what they always say? They say well the food will run out and so mass populations of humans will die off. In other words, we will reach some crazy level of population, then millions will die off due to lack of food, then rinse repeat? They are fine with this and they are supposed to be intelligent people? They leave out the fact that as humans grow in population, air, water, etc are all polluted and destroyed. Thousands of species of plant and animal life continue to become extinct. So it is not as simple as, well at some point there too many so a ton will die off and the ones who survive just start over.

It's like in the entire debate about global warming, I have never heard one person suggest we should lower the earths human population. Not one person! They say things like, well lets make cars use less gas, but in 10-20 years, there will be twice as many people driving cars, 10 million goes to 20 million then to 40 million, then 80 and on and on. The fix is ending this un-ending population growth, not making cars more fuel efficient.

But then our entire world economy is built on increasing everything so constant population growth feeds into this system. So nobody will speak out against it. If you could give people an incentive to only have 2 kids if they wanted kids, the earths human population would begin to decrease. Seems like an easy thing to do to me. But yea no one in charge is interested or cares.

It seems to me that our current perceptions about population are skewed in the way of social engineering and psychological warfare. We currently believe that you have to:
-go to school
-get a job
-get married
-get a house
-live out your life with your family

With that social standard, for every two people with a house of 3 children needs a minimum 1500 sq feet living space enclosed in a neighborhood with 1 acre of land surrounding. I don't believe that this structure is necessary to accommodate the needs of say 10 billion people residing on earth. If we somehow formed a necessary unity of the human populace (which seems extremely unlikely) the idea that space would be an issue is just a perspective farce.

The issue then becomes sustainability. I firmly believe the earth has everything we need to sustain ourselves provided we adapt to new changes appropriately. We don't have to all have electricity, that is a luxury, we don't all have to have our own space that is a luxury. I believe that putting limits on creation sets a precedent that i'm not willing to accept. I can however accept cooperation among all.

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

^^^ Well, you're right in just about every way. I would only add that economic growth and expansion is driven by profit. Unfortunately the greedy in the world (particularly governments let alone business) are happy to let people create debt to achieve it. Economies are increasingly based on debt.

Also, unfortunately, the known survivors are bacteria so when famine and malnourishment afflict enough people, Nature will weed Her garden all right.

Commenters so often succumb to naivety that "technology will find a solution... " At best it can be a sticking plaster. Because, as you say, world population doubles every so many years. If I remember it doubled every 40 years during the 20th century. But that's still bad. It's slower now particularly in the west for economic reasons - people can't afford children. I read that Greek native births have almost ceased thanks to the austerity imposed on Greece by the EU.

Trouble is, the people who pontificate, the scientists, religious freaks - LOVE to claim that declining births mean it'll be about 100 years before it doubles from now. Tell THAT to the NGOs and charities desperate to bring contraception to poorer countries where the birth rate is way above anything in the wealthier ones. Blame religion in part - the pontifax who declares contraception a sin. And this speculation, a false assurance, simply exacerbating the problem itself.

So as I see it the only way it can be contained is a pandemic of something deadly. With people globe-trotting far more these days it'll happen. It's inevitable.

An exponentially increasing population can take only so much from a finite resource.

♥

The way I see it government and other clandestine agencies are already setting population control schemes in place. Being a huge PR mess they aren't going to outright say this is our goal to reduce the population. Consider how much money goes to finding cures for cancer yet there is no cure, consider the mandatory vaccinations, the low fat high sugar diet craze, the influx of diabetes and heart related illnesses, fluoridated water supply, unregulated generic drug application, etc.

Its difficult for me to place blame on people in general. But I KNOW everyone is at fault. I just don't think any one person or group of people has everything in life right and its up to us to help others navigate life through cooperation and love.

Originally Posted by CrystalSong

Gratitude, sincerely thank and send love to all that you must destroy in order to survive yourself.
Do not take with thanklessness.

I've only recently acquired this novelty of thanking the universe for everything it has given me. I firmly believe now that giving thanks and showing appreciation is critical to the human condition.

however its extremely difficult for me to accept that what i'm doing is essentially cutting a comatose patient who appears dead to the senses but can still feel and then thanking them for allowing me to survive. It seems inhumanely barbaric to require the pain of others to sustain the life of another.

I'm curious if anyone has ever looked into water testing, where you have the three jars of water and rice, one jar you say I love you for a week, one jar you say I hate you and curse at it, and the other you completely ignore. It is interesting the results they give