i think i did my first astral projection!!how do i remember more of my ap experince?

[astralsuzy]

I am happy for dutchiexx. He is feeling good and wanting to help other people. I think that is really nice. We should thank him and not criticize him. Imagination works for him so that is great. Imagination works for me. I need use my imagination more. With ap no one is wrong. Everyone has their way of doing things. There is nothing logical with ap. It is not a scientific process and cannot be proven through logic.

[dutchiexx]

Originally Posted by VinceField

What theories are you referring to?



Bro you've had two OBEs. The amount of experience you have is what many experienced projectors can scrape from under our fingernail. Your assumptions here are laughable, especially given your level of experience, as you are claiming that something is impossible while I have had countless experiences over the span of many years confirming its validity. This isn't a pi$$ing contest, I'm only making this comparison to put your position into perspective.

What it seems you are lacking is logic, as the use of something to achieve an end (in this case, the use of imagination to achieve OBE) in no way means that thing (imagination) is the only way to achieve that end (OBE). Lack of experience is not proof of anything other than the fact that you are not in the position to make such claims, and your experience of failing to project without imagination likewise does not prove that imagination is necessary- it only indicates that you may be lacking the skills needed to project without imagination.

Ask me a direct question about one of my statements using a quote of the statement I made and I can try to help you understand. I've already explained my ideas quite plainly, so you may not be allowing yourself to see the bigger picture.

no need to get rude or defencive.

first off i would like you to explaine what you said here.how are you positive the sinking sensation is a symptom of projection?

Here's where it would be best not to jump to conclusions, but rather wait until you have more experience. The sinking sensation is a symptom of the projection process, so by this time the projection is already taking place. If you need to do something further to complete the process, then by all means, do what seems necessary, although perhaps it indicates a lack in trust of the process. Nothing more experience won't clear up.

please explaine a method to astral project without using your imagination at all.as you implied here.

The fact that imagination is not necessary for projection indicates that it is not the key, although it may be a very helpful aid. Relaxation is not a side effect of imagination, it is a state of being. Imagination may help one to achieve that state of being, but this is not the same as a mere side effect.

maybe my method is "laughable" only because you lack the ability to understand it or your to set in your own ways and refuse to be open to different possibilities because your experiences are enough to convince you understand projecting.
if thats the case then my experiences are enough for me as well.and there will be nothing neither of us can say to each other to change our minds.which makes this entire conversation pointless.

and how do i lack logic?

imagination is with out a doubt the key to projecting.seems your not experienced enough in breaking down your experiences into the core of the causes.meaning your using your imagination to astral project without even realizing that your in fact doing it.you should understand that anything you can ever think of to induce projection comes from your imagination.it all boils down to what you believe.this is the cause of projection.


im not sure how many tries it will take for me to project but would you like to meet in the astral so we can talk about this subject with better precision?i think there we will be able to communicate more freely.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by astralsuzy

I am happy for dutchiexx. He is feeling good and wanting to help other people. I think that is really nice. We should thank him and not criticize him. Imagination works for him so that is great. Imagination works for me. I need use my imagination more. With ap no one is wrong. Everyone has their way of doing things. There is nothing logical with ap. It is not a scientific process and cannot be proven through logic.

It is definitely a great thing. However, I felt his attitude could become problematic, as it can lead to the adoption of false and limiting beliefs. Perhaps you didn't read the previous exchange between him and myself, but he was arguing for something that simply isn't true, so my position isn't so much to criticize as it is to inform.

To say that no one is wrong with ap is simply false. If someone says that astral projection is all make-believe imaginary fantasy invented by the brain, and another person says that ap is a genuine experience in genuine nonphysical reality, both of these cannot be true- it's either one or the other. If someone says you can't project in a certain way, but yet countless people are able to project that way, then that statement is simply false- this is essentially what has occurred here.

My point about logic isn't regarding the ap process, but is rather about his claims that something isn't possible simply because he hasn't experienced it. This is not a logical conclusion, regardless of the topic or what it is applied to.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

no need to get rude or defencive.

I'm not. I'm just being direct and to the point.

first off i would like you to explaine what you said here.how are you positive the sinking sensation is a symptom of projection?

Because of the direct correlation between the symptom and the process over 16 years of experimentation. It's like saying, how do you know butterflies in your stomach is a symptom of skydiving? Well, it's because every time you went skydiving, you got butterflies in your stomach as you fell. When one has had an experience thousands of times and has experienced the same symptom every time, it's safe to say that there is a direct correlation.

please explaine a method to astral project without using your imagination at all.as you implied here.

I already have in previous posts:

"It's possible to wake up in the morning and slip right into the projection process with absolutely no use of imagination, but rather by just remaining aware."

Projection happens every night as we fall asleep as a natural process. No imagination is needed for this to take place. Simply by remaining aware as the process begins to take place is all it takes to experience conscious projection. Imagination is a tool that can be used to facilitate the process, and nothing more.

maybe my method is "laughable" only because you lack the ability to understand it or your to set in your own ways and refuse to be open to different possibilities because your experiences are enough to convince you understand projecting.
if thats the case then my experiences are enough for me as well.and there will be nothing neither of us can say to each other to change our minds.which makes this entire conversation pointless.

I didn't say your method is laughable. I said your assumptions are laughable, as they lack both logic and experience.

and how do i lack logic?

I've already explained.

imagination is with out a doubt the key to projecting.seems your not experienced enough in breaking down your experiences into the core of the causes.meaning your using your imagination to astral project without even realizing that your in fact doing it.you should understand that anything you can ever think of to induce projection comes from your imagination.it all boils down to what you believe.this is the cause of projection.

I have already proven that imagination is not key. Understand that the fact that you require the use of imagination right now in your practice does not mean it is the key to the experience, but only that it is the only way you can currently achieve it. If you ever develop your abilities to the point where you no longer need to use your imagination, you will realize this entire conversation has be one long case of you putting your foot in your mouth. A dude with 2 alleged projections under his belt talking to me about not being experienced is simply mind blowing. Imagination and thinking, although closely related, are not the same thing.

[dutchiexx]

Originally Posted by VinceField

It is definitely a great thing. However, I felt his attitude could become problematic, as it can lead to the adoption of false and limiting beliefs. Perhaps you didn't read the previous exchange between him and myself, but he was arguing for something that simply isn't true, so my position isn't so much to criticize as it is to inform.

To say that no one is wrong with ap is simply false. If someone says that astral projection is all make-believe imaginary fantasy invented by the brain, and another person says that ap is a genuine experience in genuine nonphysical reality, both of these cannot be true- it's either one or the other. If someone says you can't project in a certain way, but yet countless people are able to project that way, then that statement is simply false- this is essentially what has occurred here.

My point about logic isn't regarding the ap process, but is rather about his claims that something isn't possible simply because he hasn't experienced it. This is not a logical conclusion, regardless of the topic or what it is applied to.

lol, you fail to understand that your assumptions are based on your experiences,same as mine.and im saying its impossible to ap with out imagination not because i never experienced it but because it would simply not make any sense if you could project without it.please give me details about how you would project without using imagination or intent.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

lol, you fail to understand that your assumptions are based on your experiences, same as mine.i never said it was invented by the brain, come on man, read my theory and understand it before you say im wrong..

I didn't say you said projection was an invention of the brain. It was simply an example to prove my point, having nothing to do with you.

Your assumption is not based on experience- it is based on lack of experience. There is a huge difference there.

Your position here is like a person who is unable to ride a bike telling a professional cyclist that it is impossible to ride a bike.

[dutchiexx]

Originally Posted by VinceField

I didn't say you said projection was an invention of the brain. It was simply an example to prove my point, having nothing to do with you.

Your assumption is not based on experience- it is based on lack of experience. There is a huge difference there.

Your position here is like a person who is unable to ride a bike telling a professional cyclist that it is impossible to ride a bike.

haha not at all.

if you will not explain your reasoning behind your logic i will assume that your understanding of projection comes from books instead of a product from original thought.
as i said before, i can try to meet you in the astral so we can have a more precise and direct conversation.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

haha not at all.

if you will not explain your reasoning behind your logic i will assume that your understanding of projection comes from books instead of a product from original thought.
as i said before, i can try to meet you in the astral so we can have a more precise and direct conversation.

You are saying that something isn't possible because you haven't experienced it. This is no different from my bicycle example. You are also claiming to know the true nature of something after only two experiences, and are ignoring the advice of those far more experienced than yourself. This is not a wise approach. I've explained everything clearly. If you can't understand the logic behind what I am saying, then that is unfortunate for you.

[astralsuzy]

There is no wrong with ap, no matter how wrong it sounds. It cannot be proven. Many people would say this ap forum is all wrong and it is ridiculous. My husband is one of them. Please leavedutchiexx alone. He does not deserve this. People will believe what they want to believe. They will find out for themselves how to do things which is best for them.

[Tobi]

Some of the things which work for me to get out of body are also considered "old hat" and unnecessary by "experienced projectors"!
But they still work for me.

One day when I am in Spirit, I shall look back and laugh at myself, and no doubt, by these silly stumblings in conscious awareness while on Earth, entertain quite a few others of my Soul Group who may pee themselves laughing....but who, by the way will not be mean to me about it but who have unconditional love in their hearts!