something is off about astral projection

[dutchiexx]

Originally Posted by Melahin

Dreaming is not a form of projection, it is balancing of internal energies. That some are also able to project while the body rest is another story all together.

how do you know this?
everything i have ever read about ap agrees that dreaming is in fact a form of ap.

[dutchiexx]

Originally Posted by VinceField

Which ones?

the ones that claim "dreaming is ap"
and that there is "no hanicaps" in the astral.

do you disagree with either of these statments?

one of the two have to be false since a person who was born blind can not dream with visuals.

i belive if dreaming and ap are essentially the same thing, then a blind person would be able to see in his/her dreams. since "there is no handicaps" in the astral.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Melahin

It is simple. When people write stuff it is charged with energy, reading that is substantial to understanding what they write.

Dreaming is a perception of internal energies balancing themselves out. Waking up with a head full of disturbed thoughts is a sign that they did not balance during the night, during changes in your life this is a normal transitional stage. How we perceive the energies is a reflection of how we perceive life. Now with the blind people they are very auditory, so it makes sense that is a central way for them to perceive this. I would find it interesting whether or not their third eye is also blind since that could explain a lot.

Now other things can happen while the body rest, whether you call this dreaming or not matters little. I just choose not to because I see a distinct difference.

None of what you have said disproves or even suggests against the idea that dreams are in fact astral projections. A little knowledge of astral projection would inform you that they are experiences consisting entirely of energy and energetic manifestations. Your idea is actually completely compatible with the idea of dream projection.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

the ones that claim "dreaming is ap"
and that there is "no hanicaps" in the astral.

do you disagree with either of these statments?

one of the two have to be false since a person who was born blind can not dream with visuals.

i belive if dreaming and ap are essentially the same thing, then a blind person would be able to see in his/her dreams. since "there is no handicaps" in the astral.

Firstly, the idea that there are no handicaps in the astral is not necessarily true, but is rather an assumption you have made which you are basing your argument on. Basing an argument on a false assumption is not the wisest thing to do my friend.

You must have skipped my previous post addressing this issue, negating the false argument you have made. Have another read:

"Consider the possibility that what is experienced in higher planes of reality, such as the astral, takes place within a higher level of mind and must be integrated and interpreted by our base-level awareness using concepts and perceptions that it is familiar with. Thus a person lacking knowledge of a particular concept or lacking any experience with a particular mode of perception will interpret these experiences by the other means available to their physically-oriented base-level mind.

Based on my own personal experience, I believe there are higher-level perceptions which are experienced during OBEs which are not experienced in the physical world and thus are not properly assimilated and interpreted by the base-level mind upon remembering the experience, as the mind lacks the experiential foundation to recreate the experience from the physical body's reference point."

[Melahin]

Originally Posted by VinceField

None of what you have said disproves or even suggests against the idea that dreams are in fact astral projections. A little knowledge of astral projection would inform you that they are experiences consisting entirely of energy and energetic manifestations. Your idea is actually completely compatible with the idea of dream projection.

You are clearly not reading my words. I have already shown you there is a distinct difference. If you are not capable of reading the energetic imprints fair enough, then just say it instead of suggesting something that is not true. I have given you plenty of substance

[Melahin]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

everything i have ever read about ap agrees that dreaming is in fact a form of ap.

Now stop reading and start discerning for yourself, through your own experience without any preconceived notion.

[Tobi]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

i been studying alot on astral projection, astral travel, dreams, lucid dreams, remote vewing ect..
from what i understand, the difference between dreaming and astral projection is that when dreaming, your not conscious of it, and when astral projecting your fully aware of yourself and what your doing.this implies that when you dream your acually leaving your body and going to a another demension or relm and/or plain just like with ap.
i would also like to note that it is belived that if your handicapped in real life
you wont be handicapped in the astral.
now, all these facts sound really really good and they make sense, but there is one problem.People who are born blind do not dream with visuals, they have auditory dreams, this means that in there dreams they can only percive touch,smell and sound.no colors or visuals.a cousin of mine was born blind,
and he confirmed that he only has auditory dreams.
As for the people who had vision but then lost there eye sight, they dream with visuals.And the people who are not totally blind (they can see light and blurry blobs) they dream with the same vision that they have in real life.

see the problem guys??
if its true that there is no such thing as a handicapped person in the astral, then people who were born blind should be able to see in there dreams.
I know its controversial wether or not dreaming is the same thing as dreaming, but even robert monroe and a few others who are widley known for there studies of ap have all implied that dreaming is a lower form of projection.

i really want ap to be a legit thing.astral projection makes me feel better about death knowing that me and others will continue to live after death, it tells me that life has purpose, if there is nothing after death then why do we even live in the first place if we end up as if we never been born?life itself would just be a cruel joke.

i have contacted many people who claim that they can astral project at will,
i offerd them a decent sum of money if they could either ap inside my house and then describe in detail what they seen in my home or if they could pull me out my body so that i can see ap for myself.
not a single on of them accepted my offer, however, for a modest fee they would teach me how to ap for myself (it seems like they probaly gained there understanding of ap from reading books about it)

im starting to think that ap might not be legit
well, atleast when we die there can only be only 2 things that happen,

1:we live on--this would be great

2:we cease to exist--this would suck *** but atleast you wont be around to notice or complain about it o.0

Hi dutchiexx,
Just do it. Get out of body and then review your wondering about whether it's legit or not. And when it happens, still yourself so you don't try to analyse the living daylights out of it and get tied up in knots. Just allow yourself to have the experience and see what you make of it.

In my experience out of body events have been nothing like dreams, or even lucid dreams. I honestly don't know if we sometimes visit astral spaces when dreaming. Maybe we do sometimes....but a lot of the time it seems to me that dreams are formed from impressions received through the senses (mostly sight in sighted people) during the day/days prior to the dream. It may be that the majority of dreams are a mental/emotional 'filing system' of a kind.....but that is only a theory of mine. And there are many types of dreams. Deep ones and not so meaningful ones.

In my own experience with lucid dreams, when I have become lucid in a dream and realised I can use that as a springboard for astral projection, I have always regained consciousness just leaving the body from my bed/in vibrational state/on the cusp of leaving the body. From that I ascertained that in my own case, I was not already in an astral world when I became lucid, but my lucidity, which was basically 'full consciousness while the body was asleep' (plus I presume total physical withdrawal and relaxation) caused me to enter the vibrational state very easily.
I recognise that it may not be the same for everyone, and others may have very different experiences and draw different conclusions.

Reagrding what you said:
"i would also like to note that it is belived that if your handicapped in real life
you wont be handicapped in the astral."

Once I had an intensely painful arm, and paralysis in some fingers of my right hand. When I left my body (in full conscious awareness) even though only just out and in my room, I was pleasantly amazed that I felt no pain whatsoever. Not only that, but was delighted to notice I could move my hand (astral hand) just like normal, and enjoyed flexing my fingers with no paralysis. It was a wonderful feeling, that even in that moment I reflected on, and it hit me that when out of the body there is no more attachment to anything the body is suffering.
So I can attest to the fact that my own handicap at that time did not cross over with me!
(Again I reiterate that this was nothing like any kind of dream -even a lucid one.)

I believe that there has been an NDE account of someone blind from birth, who suddenly was able to see during their NDE. I believe so, and that I read that last year or possibly the year before. But I can't find the source now. If I find the link to that I shall post it.

But back to you....I know that if an OBE happens to you, you will know. So why don't you apply yourself to trying to experience this?
It will not answer all your questions about Life, the Universe and Everything. But it is a small step into the multi-dimensional nature of yourself.

Don't worry. You do not cease to exist. Although aspects of your ego, as it is, will change or drop away when you pass over.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

from what i understand, the difference between dreaming and astral projection is that when dreaming, your not conscious of it, and when astral projecting your fully aware of yourself and what your doing.this implies that when you dream your acually leaving your body and going to a another demension or relm and/or plain just like with ap.

Originally Posted by wstein

Some of us are, its called 'lucid dreaming' or 'aware dreaming', look it up.

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

lol i know man, please read my entire post, i said when your dreaming your not concience of it, im not talking about lucid dreaming there.
i belive i even said that i am very good at lucid dreaming, so of course i know what it is lol.

Let me be more complete and hopefully more clear.

First a note about lucid dreaming. The dream part of lucid dreams are exactly the same as 'regular' (non lucid) dreams. It is in fact possible to switch back and forth from one to the other several times while the dream progresses. In lucid dreaming one is fully conscious in the same way one is while awake.

Same goes for aware dreaming, you are fully conscious. The only difference is that in aware dreaming you may not realize that you are dreaming.

Referencing your original post: because one can be conscious in BOTH projection and dreaming, there is no implication from 'not conscious of it'.

Further you have not in any way established that you leave your body during dreaming. Even if what you said was true that one is not conscious of it, that does not say anything about your location.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Melahin

You are clearly not reading my words. I have already shown you there is a distinct difference. If you are not capable of reading the energetic imprints fair enough, then just say it instead of suggesting something that is not true. I have given you plenty of substance

This is what you said:

Dreaming is a perception of internal energies balancing themselves out. Waking up with a head full of disturbed thoughts is a sign that they did not balance during the night, during changes in your life this is a normal transitional stage. How we perceive the energies is a reflection of how we perceive life. Now with the blind people they are very auditory, so it makes sense that is a central way for them to perceive this. I would find it interesting whether or not their third eye is also blind since that could explain a lot.

All you did here was state your beliefs about dreaming. You made no comparisons with the projection theory either. I can see this is not going to go very far. But who knows, maybe you'll surprise me.

[wstein]

I have a lot of experience in both projection and dreaming. The dreaming experience is distinct from the projection experience in the way it works, what one can do during that that experience, whether things appear literally or symbolically, how one moves, continuity, the effect of one's physical body being disturbed, and many other ways.