Dealing (or not) with 'problematic' persons

[davidsun]

Hello again, 7L -

The parallels between our respective analyses and stances in relation to 'the problem' as your most recently expressed in the dialog at http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=128 are considerable. It is heartwarming to come across and interact with someone with similar degree of awareness and concern. I have one 'sticking point' in relation to what you say in the excerpt below which, even as I contemplate reconsidering my attitude and position on said score, I'd like to throw out for further consideration. I think it best to start another thread with this as I have been feeling like a 'thief' for taking up so much of the Renounce-or-Integrate thread's 'stage' by addressing this topic there.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

So let's rephrase...the long-term solution is spiritual growth at all levels, including personal and collective. But some folks are actively exploring misalignment and a narcissistic indulgence of self for maybe aeons. And so containment is a reality. As is choosing non-engagement or disengagement wherever possible, for the rest of us. This strategy of non-engagement when dealing with any kind of brutality or hostility, including the non-physical kind, is the highly preferred option, IMO.

Physical and verbal non-engagement (i.e. inaction) may indeed be 'best' in many a circumstance, but I would argue against psychospiritual non-engagement in relation to any 'problematic' relational situation because I think that all of our thoughts and feelings have an effect on The Flow of Life, albeit in or via 'psychospiritual' channels. Thus, even if a 'murderer' cannot be contained or stopped in physio-sociological terms, 'identifying' and 'deciding' that he/she (his/her behaviors really) are persona non grata and actively wishing him or her off stage (if he or she doesn't reform) is a Life-Flow 'directing' contribution to/in the stream of Life happenings. Making engaged and potentially engaging public statements, however circumspectly, in said regard is therefore a valid (important?) 'duty' in said regard, as is openly attempting to dissuade (convert? etc.) people who may be so inclined. This goes along with the idea that "Silence is complicity" in said regard. How 'the Pope' handled, or rather didn't handle, Hitler's/Nazism's travesties in relation to various aspects of Life is a 'famous' historical case in point.

Such 'intervention' in relation to peeps whose 'thrust' is antithetical to and/or simply not salutary in relation to Life's ongoing 'flowering' and 'fructification' process may even be done in 'solitary' prayer, as is clearly conveyed by the following passage (I think):

"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

Thinking that the kind of non-engagement implicit in "just smiling and tipping one's hat at all others," 'problematic' others included, is 'the best' universal-love kind of thing one can to do in the Parade of Life is not something I am personally willing to 'quietly' go along with at this point, not while I am 'on stage' at least. At the very least, I say, stand up and be counted, call what you see as being a spade a spade! (of course remaining open to view-revision) in open con-verse-ation.

Of course, doing so without things like 'hate', 'recrimination' and 'disparagement' poisoning the atmosphere of 'the temple' of 'truth' is also of paramount importance, I think.

And of course, there just is nothing to be gained by just continuing to 'butt heads' with folks who either don't want to 'see' or just can't 'hear' what one wishes to communicate, but the beauty of it is that there are always other 'eyes' and 'ears' present in a public forum.

Again, in case one is inclined to think so, let me clearly state that I am not advocating getting into 'crass' verbal 'slug-fests' etc. I simply wish to propose, for discussional purposes, that just being 'polite' and not honestly 'upfront' in relation to others' behaviors, including their verbal ones, may not be a totally 'good' policy just because it isn't as 'bad' as the former.

Originally Posted by davidsun

And of course, there just is nothing to be gained by just continuing to 'butt heads' with folks who either don't want to 'see' or just can't 'hear' what one wishes to communicate, but the beauty of it is that there are always other 'eyes' and 'ears' present in a public forum.

Again, in case one is inclined to think so, let me clearly state that I am not advocating getting into 'crass' verbal 'slug-fests' etc. I simply wish to propose, for discussional purposes, that just being 'polite' and not honestly 'upfront' in relation to others' behaviors, including their verbal ones, may not be a totally 'good' policy just because it isn't as 'bad' as the former.

davidsun,

A widely accepted spiritual principle heard is "that which you resist, you give strength to". Arguing/discussing with a hard-headed person will in all likelihood make them even more so. It might be a fools errand.

The trouble with being a public forum and hoping that other eyes and ears may bear witness is this: In any group there are always those that out of sympathy will come to the defense of the underdog. This can actually encourage the miscreant to perceive his position to be tenable and strengthen his resolve to remain unchanged. Democracy has no bearing here.....a negative vote of 10-1 will not change some people's positions. Some of the underlying wisdom of "turn the other cheek"....."a soft word turneth away wrath".....???? Perhaps.......:)

[7luminaries]

Davidsun hello there

There are loads of points here (where is my coffee? LOL). I will have to review more carefully, but I will say that yes, you are correct in that the non-engagement I refer to is of the physical realm, meaning, avoid concrete interaction with the violent and murderous and predatory wherever possible and contain them where necessary for the greater good.

I absolutely did not mean that you do not include them in the general well wishes and authentic love you extend to all humanity and to all sentience and to all that is. To exclude anyone and anything is to effectively wish or demand that the universe be other than it is...which ultimately is gam zu l'tova as the kabbalists say, or, all to the good.

I also think that the honest, compassionate, and direct approach is a service, a gift, and a great honour that we do for one another, should we choose to accept it. Along the lines of the authentically loving engagement you mention.

I also think that it is key in general...and particularly for all those you know personally and even with whom you are acquainted...to allow for the growth of the soul. I don't always find there is substantial breakthrough growth in everyone over any one lifetime, but there damned sure is sometimes. Maybe this is that lifetime for any one person...and maybe it's this lifetime those murderers and predators and deceivers will feel remorse and will seek true repentence and true reconciliation. Who is to say?

Let me put it this way. Growth and ownership and integrity and right-alignment are bound to happen, even if it takes most of eternity. So in my understanding, it is a duty of the heart...that is, we are spiritually obligated...to forgive and make a space for growth and contrition and repentance...to ready a space for reconciliation within the circles of belonging. The first circle is our personal sphere, physical/spiritual, and the larger circles are that of our collective society and our collective humanity.

But equally, we are spiritually obligated to do the same for our own selves, to heal and nurture and forgive and value ourselves whilst we get on with things, with the engagement and the sharing of authentic love...which may not be returned for most of eternity by some of those souls closest to us. Much less murderous, predatory strangers. We reach a point where we must attend the personal self and where we cannot further overextend the self in all areas without a natural outflowing of reciprocity and mutuality of affirmation and lovingkindness in at least some areas. So, there is a place for engagement and a place for conscious, spiritually-engaged non-engagement in the physical world. There is a time and place for silence and for sending blessings from afar when we have engaged or reached out and it has not been constructive or mutually authentically loving.

There is a balance, and we are called to honour it and attain it. We must each find that balance for ourselves. But it absolutely does not mean brutalising, subjugating, and demeaning ourselves in the name of allowing others to explore non-alignment for aeons. By refusing to call a spade a spade, to draw boundaries, to say NO, to step back, to practice non-engagement, we collude and enable the continuation of misalignment and the perpetration of an ever more toxic, unsustainable imbalance. As we hold space for growth in others, so too we hold a space for our own growth. As we have faith and allow for others to evolve more fuily into who they truly are, so too can do the same.

TBH, I don't see how we can grow and evolve in this moment without allowing the same for others, even if it is not always perceptible growth or substantive growth. This doesn't mean staying in a bad marriage or pursuing a toxic family relationship when you see no meaningful change despite your kind and well-intentioned engagement or followup. It means simply engaging where we can and regardless leaving a space in your own heart for forgiveness and for their spiritual growth. With the deepest faith that one day they will come to this same place regarding you and all others (perhaps many lifetimes hence) and know in that moment that you sent them blessings and honoured their path from your side, as best you could without parity and a mutuality of lovingkindness. In that time and place, a true reconciliation will at last be possible, but it doesn't mean you cannot pave the way now with whatever love and blessings you can exchange here and now. It's akin to building the pyramid. You've got to lay the foundation and all the levels in between.

-----------------

I myself have become much more measured...it seems this lifetime is one of 1) finally just surviving a bit longer 2) pulling a lot of pieces together, healing and cleaning things up where I can, and appreciating the love and blessings I have 3) coming into my skin more fully and continuing to stand for whom I am 4) continuing to grow at my own pace regardless of the pace of those around me (though I see mum's finally done some work on her temper over the yrs, LOL...) and 5) keeping the faith, so to speak. I can't really expect much else, I figure. On that last point, I am generally disgusted and contemptuous of the way half of humanity is viewed by the other half (not all but in general)...and then there are all those other labels and boxes we overlay on that, as well. I have to work hard to reign in the contempt, keeping in mind the pervasive effect of a degraded, exploitative, utilitarian culture. Whilst knowing my intelligence and courage and honour and dignity derive from who I am at centre are the equal of any man or woman -- and are not bound by my gender and appearance.

So this is my challenge in this area...to use my insight and clarity for good -- to engage with clarity and honesty and specificity -- and to refrain from giving too much nonspecific vent to my disgust when I am viewed or treated in low and base ways, with dishonour, disrespect, or degradation. Because of my womanhood. It is a huge challenge for any woman, LOL...so far, so good, more or less . I tell most folks I speak with at any length that we've all been both men and women...and I may eventually explain that's probably where many of my insights on men derive (b/c I recall very clearly those lifetimes, LOL...and my strengths and weaknesses).

I have still not been forgiven for the hurt I caused my best mate in that 1st lifetime as a man (large and powerful, a thoughtless cad too apparently), and he was the one I loved most and was closest to. It hurts even today that we can't manage to get along because he is not right with things from way, way back, I suspect. Can you even imagine the state of things had I just carried on like that lifetime after lifetime? The spiritual damage would be almost too enormous to contemplate. I was in a primitive state that 1st lifetime. But what is the excuse here and now? Most have already had several lifetimes already, LOL...it's just pitiful really.

Given that I learnt my lesson, owned my game, and was respectful after the 1st life (and frankly it was EXPECTED and a matter of course that all men do so), I know that the humanity we see now on earth is at a very low and degraded place...indulged, addicted, and not sufficiently challenged and matured. Taking the lazy, "power over" way, dehumanising others in predatory and exploitative ways, rather than challenging themselves to progress more truly and more deeply on their own journey.

Likewise women have been told throughout history they exist to serve, like slaves and mindless sheeple. It's high time for this insidious underdevelopment to stop...and we have to call it out for what it is. Morally wrong and misaligned. But change will only come when we as women also engage in the hard work of developing our autonomous agency and the fullness of our humanity within a setting of violence and predation and profound disregard and dishonour...so that we too can exercise non-engagement when needed, instead of mindlessly enabling our own predation and brutalisation. That's the deal...this is a pivotal time of change in human spiritual development, and it's on all of us to do the hard work to pull our own pants up and wipe our own bottoms spiritually speaking, so we can emerge from this infantile stage.

Drawing back and allowing space for reflection, change, and growth for all -- and particularly those pursuing misalignment -- is exactly what is needed in order to attain balance. In order to grow and heal, we must provide for ourselves and for one another a sacred space, a circle of belonging where we draw back and hold the boundary, so that some now actively pursuing misalignment (and often at society's direct behest and approval) can reflect and stretch and one day come forward with humility and grace to meet others in a place of mutual honour, dignity, parity and equanimity and lovingkindness.

Peace & blessings David
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

There is a balance, and we are called to honour it and attain it. We must each find that balance for ourselves. But it absolutely does not mean brutalising, subjugating, and demeaning ourselves in the name of allowing others to explore non-alignment for aeons. By refusing to call a spade a spade, to draw boundaries, to say NO, to step back, to practice non-engagement, we collude and enable the continuation of misalignment and the perpetration of an ever more toxic, unsustainable imbalance. As we hold space for growth in others, so too we hold a space for our own growth. As we have faith and allow for others to evolve more fuily into who they truly are, so too can do the same.

TBH, I don't see how we can grow and evolve in this moment without allowing the same for others, even if it is not always perceptible growth or substantive growth. This doesn't mean staying in a bad marriage or pursuing a toxic family relationship when you see no meaningful change despite your kind and well-intentioned engagement or followup. It means simply engaging where we can and regardless leaving a space in your own heart for forgiveness and for their spiritual growth. With the deepest faith that one day they will come to this same place regarding you and all others (perhaps many lifetimes hence) and know in that moment that you sent them blessings and honoured their path from your side, as best you could without parity and a mutuality of lovingkindness. In that time and place, a true reconciliation will at last be possible, but it doesn't mean you cannot pave the way now with whatever love and blessings you can exchange here and now.

7luminaries & davidsun,

We all sing the same refrains...."Try and see it my way, we can work it out" and "I did it my way". I like it that you speak of balance. In the world that we live in, balance is necessary and is that which allows us to survive....i.e. the polarity of the earth, etc. Good and evil especially......duality if you will. Different laws for different universes. We do not assume the necessity of polarity for the heavenly realms where there can be no duality.....no good and evil.

By the way, when we say 'my way'......'my way' is not a static dictum. 'My way' is always subject to change and is ever evolving. What I believe and argue next year might differ greatly from what I perceive to be true presently.

In regards to balance.....it is not what we might think. There is qualitative balance as opposed to quantitative balance. This means that 'good' has more weight than 'evil'. Biblically speaking if we forgive the sins of another, our sinS are forgiven. i.e. one act of forgiveness results in the forgiveness of multiple sins that we have committed.

In Genesis there is an interesting interchange between Abraham and God when Abraham intercedes with God to save Sodom. Genesis 18:26......."The Lord said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake". Abraham is persistent and bargains with God and it concludes with God agreeing to spare Sodom if ten righteous men can be found in Sodom. This is an example of qualitative vs. quantitative.

In a different thread, I quoted someone that said....."Evil exists for the strengthening of the soul". The evil that we despair of, that drives us crazy.....serves a purpose. It strengthens our souls so that we can be agents for maintaining the balance you speak of.....contributing our share to the qualitative side that balances out the quantitative and negative side.

In the end, we recognize that everyone does things 'my way' and it contributes to the whole. We should not despair or feel overwhelmed when we realize that 'good' in whatever quantity can offset 'evil'(in whatever quantity).

An addendum.......forgive me in advance....but I seem to have song lyrics on my brain today........:)

You got to try a little kindness
Yes show a LITTLE kindness
Just shine your light for everyone to see
And if you try a little kindness
Then you'll overlook the blindness
Of narrow-minded people on the narrow-minded streets

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Molearner

7luminaries & davidsun,

We all sing the same refrains...."Try and see it my way, we can work it out" and "I did it my way". I like it that you speak of balance. In the world that we live in, balance is necessary and is that which allows us to survive....i.e. the polarity of the earth, etc. Good and evil especially......duality if you will. Different laws for different universes. We do not assume the necessity of polarity for the heavenly realms where there can be no duality.....no good and evil.

By the way, when we say 'my way'......'my way' is not a static dictum. 'My way' is always subject to change and is ever evolving. What I believe and argue next year might differ greatly from what I perceive to be true presently.

In regards to balance.....it is not what we might think. There is qualitative balance as opposed to quantitative balance. This means that 'good' has more weight than 'evil'. Biblically speaking if we forgive the sins of another, our sinS are forgiven. i.e. one act of forgiveness results in the forgiveness of multiple sins that we have committed.

In Genesis there is an interesting interchange between Abraham and God when Abraham intercedes with God to save Sodom. Genesis 18:26......."The Lord said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake". Abraham is persistent and bargains with God and it concludes with God agreeing to spare Sodom if ten righteous men can be found in Sodom. This is an example of qualitative vs. quantitative.

In a different thread, I quoted someone that said....."Evil exists for the strengthening of the soul". The evil that we despair of, that drives us crazy.....serves a purpose. It strengthens our souls so that we can be agents for maintaining the balance you speak of.....contributing our share to the qualitative side that balances out the quantitative and negative side.

In the end, we recognize that everyone does things 'my way' and it contributes to the whole. We should not despair or feel overwhelmed when we realize that 'good' in whatever quantity can offset 'evil'(in whatever quantity).

Hi molearner and thanks for your thoughts.
I myself don't relate to topic in perhaps quite the way you describe, but I believe I understand and appreciate what you are saying.

I am not saying as the Beatles did to "try and see it my way"...more that for those souls closest to us, we would come to know others' ways and means as if they were our own. And thereby continually enlarge who we are at centre in an organic fashion.

I also don't see what we call good as balancing out what we call evil in some sort of impartial karmic way...but I am not saying that's what you meant either. It's simply that, if I take it this way, it doesn't resonate with my understanding.

What I think is that there is right alignment with authentic love...where we actively will and support the highest good of all equally to the self, and vice versa. Where we all actively will and support all others and all that is in authentic love. And there is misalignment with authentic love. There is misalignment in service to self (and one's group by extension) and there is misalignment in enabling of others in service to self.

Because the wounds that occur are experienced at the level of individuated consciousness (though perhaps also in collective ways as well), then they must largely be addressed, healed, and reconciled at this level as well. If you poo on someone and wound them, I don't think you can reasonably assume your awakening and support of humanitarian causes etc. makes it all right between you and that other soul. No...it does not necessarily do that, because that is for the other soul to say. That other soul is equally valuable and priceless, no matter where he or she is at on their journey or with regard to you personally.

Now perhaps they've let it all go and perhaps they've not. But if so, then it's on you to meet them and reconcile...whether now or somewhere down the river. If you've hurt them badly perhaps it'll not be this lifetime...but one day, in love and repentence and reconciliation, you can mend those fences and those broken channels. Meanwhile, whilst living ever more in love and light, you'll be becoming the change you want to see in the world. With concrete, tangible expression in word and deed of lovingkindness and equanimity.

But I do think that eventually via engagement in authentic love and reconciliation borne of wisdom and insight, that "we can work it out". I do think the personal, individuated addressing of misalignment or wrongs and harms is key.

I don't think all the generic goodness and good will in existence can replace personal engagement and personal goodness and goodwill expressed from one person to another. From one soul to another. That's the deal. That's interbeing. And that's what MLK meant when he said "we dont' get there till we all get there".

So...what that means is, when we are all at a place of mutuality and reciprocity in authentic love for self and one another. Such that we freely and mutually seek to exchange authentic lovingkindness with one another right all wrongs from a place of love, equanimity, and right alignment with self, one another and all that is. Because it glorifies the soul (of all) and all that is.

As I understand, that is what it means when some say the end of karma. Which doesn't mean the end of me giving a fig coz I've got no more karma or am making no more karma . The end of karma in totality is the end of karma for all. No point in proclaiming that one just yet...it's getting ahead of ourselves. But whilst we are in the becoming, we can focus on being and doing authentic love...on the equanimity and the lovingkindness therein. All of which requires ownership and integrity of being on all levels, individual and collective.

Peace & blessings
7L

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Arguing/discussing with a hard-headed person will in all likelihood make them even more so. It might be a fools errand.

Is this true or do people listen and we (always) don't see it. What if a person came up to you many years later and thanked you for what you said.

A person will likely not do what you want at the time of communication yet in another place and time will both use and take credit for it with strangers.

A person will not agree with you in front of you. There is much unknown here to and much you will not ever know.

Many times we need to hear it said and vocalized. Our expectation is it didn't and won't happen. Our expectation of self proof is not seen, but according to communication studies much communication isn't immediate but it is not rejected. It is taken within and held untill later. You will never be agreed with...lol. In fact communication may not be realized for many years as it is thought about and reflected on. We all know valuable information. Have you ever said upon realization after many years of something someone told you said, now I understand what they meant. Why withhold information. You really don't know if what you say is going to be important especially if there is a lot of communication static such as anger.

I think there's just to much pride and feeling anger of being rejected. The Universe may have put you in that time and place to provide information that may or may not be taken. It's information that is made available.

[davidsun]

Wow, 7L, Mo and Lem! (Any 'sounds like' association to the names of 'The 3 Stooges' is purely coincidental! )

Y'all make me aware of how 'big' this topic is (in a 'good' way, by the way) in terms of possible involutions and convolutions and things to 'watch out' for (I mean in good way, like to be cognizant of and consider) in said regard.

I confess, Mo, that my personal thought-feeling-and-behavioral-choice inclinations are more in line with what I correctly or incorrectly 'see' or 'hear' is Lemex's (simpler) and 7L's (more complex) willing to be 'confrontational' or 'rough and ready' as 'called for' approach to interpersonal engagements - and correctly or incorrectly 'see' or hear' what you have said and advocated as avoiding significant issues and response-abilities in said regard, though I also think and feel that your approach is more desirable that a whole lot of other (possible) alternatives.

I say this to publicly declare 'where I am coming from' not to 'argue' that you (or anyone else) 'should' approach and deal (or not deal) with things differently. I am very happy to have such thoughtfulness (theirs, yours and mine) presented 'in public' so any readers can/will have 'more' approaches and related ideas to consider and possibly choose to experiment with and, again possibly, implement in the context of their own 'social space', including 'here' in this forum.

My plate is too full in said regard to add anything to it now. I will get back to adding some of my slant (think of it as salad dressing) on the topic in due course, I imagine. Don't (anyone) wait for me to do so, however. Don't hold back if the spirit moves you to say something (more) which your think and feel is additionally significant.

Again - very much appreciating the thoughtfulness and wisdom-'slants' relating to the topic expressed above. I feel 'honored' by the company here.

[Shivani Devi]

After just having skimmed the thread because it is a lot to take in all at once...

People, by way of their character, personality, beliefs, idealism and the like just won't get along with some people, no matter what! - sad, but true.

It may be something one or the other has said in the past and that just sticks like mud, so whatever else is said, is merely seen through a filter of that past experience.

It just takes one thing, something another may say that just touches a nerve and we label that person as being 'dislike-able' or 'problematic' in that there are no redeeming qualities about that person whatsoever and so, after the fact, whatever they have to say all becomes 'rubbish' and 'nonsense'.

They end up on an 'ignore list' or whatever because the communication process has totally broken down right from the word go.

They may try for some understanding, some redemption, only to be met with "remember that time six months ago when you said something different? now you're only being a contriving hypocrite".

Sometimes, no matter how long we give it, things will not get any better and they will not change while ever there are those out there who believe it is impossible for people to do so.

In any regards, what is lacking in communication, is a very simple response; "can you please tell me what you mean by that, as I don't quite understand it, thank you" and keep on saying it, until you get what the other person means...what they are thinking about, instead of merely assuming it.

You can try to deal with difficult people as much as you like, sometimes there will be a breakthrough via way of mutual understanding and that's great when it happens, but a lot of the time, all you can do is move on from their 'sphere of influence' and say, "I'm going now, but peace be with you and I wish you well".

[happy soul]

There's something else about this that I've recently explored and found very helpful.

It's about 'answering the call for love.'

It's not always necessary to 'correct' people verbally. It's usually better to simply answer their call for love.

In other words, unloving behavior is a 'call for love', and we can provide the love that is being called for.

Often, it's not necessary to address the wrongdoing, but simply to express kindness.