Enlightenment

Originally Posted by Moondance

Hi Iamthat

That’s a nice quote but I think that we have to be cautious about drawing conclusions from isolated quotes in this way. Ramana spoke to those who came to see him at the level of understanding that they were at in that moment. As a consequence many of his utterances are context dependent (some even seem contradictory).

For instance, he also said:

“You impose limits on your true nature of infinite being. Then you get displeased to be only a limited creature. Then you begin spiritual practices to transcend these non-existing limits. But if your practice itself implies the existence of these limits, how could they allow you to transcend them.”

And:

“There is nothing so simple as being the Self. It requires no effort, no aid. One has to leave off the wrong identity and be in his (her) eternal, natural, inherent state.”

This is not to take sides on the effort vs no effort conversation. From my perspective it makes no sense to say that one approach is superior or more suitable than the other - awakening will only occur via certain organisms under certain life circumstances. It’s all about ripeness and ripeness can emerge in different ways - not just formal sadhana.

And yet to the Sage, these two sayings mean the same thing. Of course people are at different stages (And hence why walking the path is more beneficial than debating/thinking/intellectualizing it), but it doesn't mean Ramana contradicted or said different things in REALITY

Edit: PS Thank you for bringing the full quote, iamthat - context is everything as usual

Originally Posted by God-Like

One can either be a blissed out bunny not really engaging and functioning in this world, or one can put on your clothes brush your teeth have some toast and go to work.

I disagree. All the Awakened Sages are functional and more than involved in the world. There is no discrepancy, imo.

Originally Posted by Altair

It is said to be cessation of karma and being in enlightenment 24/7 forever ever after.

And eminently do-able

Nirvana, says Ajahn Sumedho, is not some far off goal that can only be attained through years of effort. It is a state of being you can realize at any moment once you let go of grasping.

https://www.lionsroar.com/nirvana-now/

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by janielee

I disagree. All the Awakened Sages are functional and more than involved in the world. There is no discrepancy, imo.

And I would suggest that the Awakened Sage who sits in a cave in deep samadhi is also serving humanity, by raising the overall consciousness of humanity. Enlightened teachers may work on many levels, not all of which are obvious to the casual observer.

Peace.

Originally Posted by iamthat

And I would suggest that the Awakened Sage who sits in a cave in deep samadhi is also serving humanity, by raising the overall consciousness of humanity. Enlightened teachers may work on many levels, not all of which are obvious to the casual observer.

Peace.

No disagreement whatsoever; some work in cloistered environments, others in towns. etc.

Originally Posted by iamthat

More nice quotes - thank you, Moondance.

Regarding the first quote, is RM actually saying that no practice or sadhana is necessary? Or is he just advising against following any practice which implies that we are limited? Which suggests that some practices are more useful than others.

I was curious about the context of the first quote, so I found:

Truly there is no cause for you to be miserable and unhappy. You yourself impose limitations on your true nature of infinite Being and then weep that you are but a finite creature. Then you take up this or that sadhana to transcend the nonexistent limitations. But if your sadhana itself assumes the existence of the limitations, how can it help you to transcend them? Hence I say know that you are really the infinite, pure Being, the Self Absolute. You are always that Self and nothing but that Self. Therefore, you can never be really ignorant of the Self; your ignorance is merely a formal ignorance... Know then that true Knowledge does not create a new Being for you; it only removes your "ignorant ignorance." Bliss is not added to your nature; it is merely revealed as your true and natural state, eternal and imperishable. The only way to be rid of your grief is to know and be the Self.

Which is supported by the second quote given: There is nothing so simple as being the Self. It requires no effort, no aid. One has to leave off the wrong identity and be in his (her) eternal, natural, inherent state.

Being the Self is simple and effortless, once we have realised the Self. Having realised the Self, it is always present without having to think about it. Until we realise the Self, it is neither simple nor effortless. The question that seekers face is how to remove the "ignorant ignorance". Talking about being the Self is not the same as the realisation of being the Self.

Peace.

Yes it reads as pointing out the limitation of said sadhana

But if your sadhana itself assumes the existence of the limitations, how can it help you to transcend them?

"If other thoughts rise, one should, without attempting to complete them, enquire, 'To whom did they arise?', it will be known 'To me'. If one then enquires 'Who am I?', the mind (power of attention) will turn back to its source. By repeatedly practising thus, the power of the mind to abide in its source increases."

- Ramana Maharsi

Sounds like a Zen koan technique. Interesting.

Unless one is happy, one cannot bestow happiness on others.

-Ramana Mahasri

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by janielee

I disagree. All the Awakened Sages are functional and more than involved in the world. There is no discrepancy, imo.

Do you know the difference between the blissed out non functional state and the functional state that facilitates an individual preference to brush their teeth and put on clothes?


x daz x

[Altair]

A lot of what I read here on SF is just confusion, etymology and philosophy..
The quotes that mention stuff along the lines of ''..don't try..'' and ''..it takes no effort..'' are easy to misinterpret..

No.. when you are in that ''state'' it takes no effort, no trying. But to actually be there forever, 24/7, requires actual self-realization, and to achieve that.. discipline and determination, and yes, action, as in doing spiritual practice, are still necessary. For as long as you still aren't there always you will need a degree of action. This is what makes humans equipped to grow spiritually, otherwise we may as well have been born as pigeons or raccoons...

All those quotes are actually easy to fathom.. and I've never read anything about this 'Ramana'..
I don't know him but I bet he spend most of his life doing sadhana..

... but we can walk around in circles not getting the meaning of non-doing and actually doing sadhana, and just confusing things.
It's because most of us are culturally shaped by viewing ''spirituality'' along the lines of philosophy, argumentation and writing like a poet, and not practice.

If you can still experience anger, doubt, hatred, jealousy, desire, attachment you are simply NOT enlightened..
You are just an aspirant or practitioner or monk..

If 'God' is perfect, divine, and pure THAN the enlightened person exemplifies that by having conquered all those lower characteristics..
He/she is in effect a ''God amongst men''..

Originally Posted by Moondance

This is not to take sides on the effort vs no effort conversation. From my perspective it makes no sense to say that one approach is superior or more suitable than the other - awakening will only occur via certain organisms under certain life circumstances. It’s all about ripeness and ripeness can emerge in different ways - not just formal sadhana.

Yes.. you can have a spontaneous experience that “wakes you up” but to actually grow further does take sadhana.. I learned that the hard way..