proof of Gods existence

[Pleroo]

Hi. New here, invited by the lovely Miss H, and this is my first post so if its not in the right sub forum, I apologize.

So my question is, do you think that desiring undeniable proof that a personal God exists is the surest way to NOT receive that proof? Just seems to me (as a sort of agnostic who thinks there are reasons to believe such a god exists, but in the absence of any certainty on the matter also thinks there is good reason not to), that if I am earnestly desiring to connect to god/source/whatever (which I am) my mind might easily convince me that I have, even if I haven't. In other words, I don't trust myself not to subconsciously fabricate "proof". So I want to experience connection, but doubt I would trust it even if it happened. Blah.

How do you find a way to detach yourself from the desire for proof, enough so that you won't subconsciously manufacture experiences, without completely killing your motivation to even continue to try and to remain open to connecting?

Clear as mud?

[Jyotir]

Hi Pleroo,

First, allow me to be the first in welcoming you.
Any friend of Miss H (if you mean as in Hepburn) is a friend of mine.

So called ‘proof’ is simply an attempt at specific objectification within the general activity of mind - what it does, which is to divide, separate, compare, contrast etc. It is intrinsically dualistic and uses one apparently separate aspect of reality to validate or invalidate another ‘part’, but by doing so it renders reality always incomplete, because it is dividing it up, always chasing a moving target or moving away from an arrow.

In a way, the mind is the movement of attachment to any ‘separate’ identity in the physical, which is always changing - instead of an eternal presence in and through the totality of all movement. There appears to be a virtual infinity of separate beings all doing something and interdependently interacting, but truth is - this is really ONE BEING. That is why so-called ‘objective truth’ is a fallacy of materialism, which is itself (as matter) only an aspect, a condition of ignorance.

There is an inversion of the common definition here in that in yoga (union with God/Highest) the progression is towards increasing subjectivity. Objectivity in Yoga means the complete embodied realisation of Truth in the individuated being. It’s a subjective realization by full identification with the whole, not a comparison of parts, or objectivity in the conventional sense - which is what ‘proof‘ as defined by mind would be.

So if you demand proof - that is mind asking for one separate part of reality to ‘justify’ another. It becomes an impossible infinite regression, ie., even if you can prove or disprove something, then what validates the proof? And so on… It always regresses into another aspect needed for comparison, another thorn to remove a splinter which then becomes itself another splinter.

According to your question then, it is the desire for proof which is itself the manufactured experience in the mind consciousness. The real ‘connection’ is the openness to allow reality to be experienced without the intercession of the mind which is the movement and noise of dividing, separating, naming and comparing. Meditation is a good practice to become increasingly familiar with a consciousness transcendent of the normal waking type which in human beings is suffused with the mind.

As to this:
“do you think that desiring undeniable proof that a personal God exists is the surest way to NOT receive that proof?”
My answer would be ‘yes’.

Just desire God, not the proof. That’s the simplicity of it.

Proof is far inferior to God because according to one ‘definition’ of God, God is the One, not a conditional aspect, and that is the opportunity...
Aspect is already a given in the form of each differentiated life. Then just become whole by realising the full identity of what that individual life is - the totality of all life and beyond.

Do you not think that if you experience God (in whatever form - doesn't have to be a Personal Deity) that direct experience will not be ‘proof’ enough? Also, the desire for God, love of God, search for God, is in a way itself a ’proof’ of that Presence emergent in your very life. Its just that in the mind, it is very difficult to ‘get there’ through what is really a diversion by habit away from an emergent new breath, or aspiration, or breath of Spirit which is awakening in you. That is what you are experiencing.

Mind is by nature an ignorance which only sees itself through its own eyes. That’s the mud. Sincerity is the clarity. Need for proof is a detour.

~ J

[kkfern]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

Hi. New here, invited by the lovely Miss H, and this is my first post so if its not in the right sub forum, I apologize.

So my question is, do you think that desiring undeniable proof that a personal God exists is the surest way to NOT receive that proof? Just seems to me (as a sort of agnostic who thinks there are reasons to believe such a god exists, but in the absence of any certainty on the matter also thinks there is good reason not to), that if I am earnestly desiring to connect to god/source/whatever (which I am) my mind might easily convince me that I have, even if I haven't. In other words, I don't trust myself not to subconsciously fabricate "proof". So I want to experience connection, but doubt I would trust it even if it happened. Blah.

How do you find a way to detach yourself from the desire for proof, enough so that you won't subconsciously manufacture experiences, without completely killing your motivation to even continue to try and to remain open to connecting?

Clear as mud?

what would be your tipping point? you can explain it away if you experience spirit once or twice but there will come a time that the evidence will outweigh the denial. if you stop reading or examining what others have said and start exploring. the tipping point will come.

kk

[Pleroo]

Thank you both for your replies.

Jyotir, I've read through your post a few times. You use some terminology I'm not familiar with and some of the concepts you seem to be putting forth are hard for me to grasp. I think I sort of get it, but if you'd be willing to rephrase it in layman's terms, it might help. If you can't dumb it down for me I understand and still sincerely appreciate the time you have already given me.

kkfern, when I was a christian I believed god was "speaking" to me through the bible. But I started to question that. I started wanting the more pentecostal signs, if you know what I mean, not for the thrill factor, but because I felt that I wasn't tapped into the power of god in a way that was truly transforming, and I wanted that very much. Didn't happen.

For that and for other reasons, I came to believe no god existed and was closed off to the possibilty for a short period of time. Since then I have been exploring. Sometimes I think I'm connecting but, looking back at those times, I just don't know.

My point is, I am exploring but I'm just very skeptical due to having spent a majority of my life duped by fundamentalist christian doctrines and I think that stands in my way. I don't trust my own judgment anymore when it comes to things of the spirit. I think you probably have to throw yourself into it wholeheartedly, but I don't know how or if I can do that anymore. Once bitten, twice shy perhaps? Or maybe I'm just expecting too much... But it seems to me that connection with god shouldn't just be an experience, it should be an experience that changes me.

[Thunder Bow]

Religion is about control and social order, and has nothing to do with the universe and all its powers. Work on connecting with all there is. Know you are a part of the universe.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Thunder Bow

Religion is about control and social order, and has nothing to do with the universe and all its powers. Work on connecting with all there is. Know you are a part of the universe.

Thanks for your rep!y, Thunder Bow. That seems sort of along the same lines as jyotir saying to just desire god, not the proof.

So, do you all find that your connection with God/the universe is empowering and transforming? I don't think I have the heart/desire to seek god for godself. I want that connection to make a difference. Maybe that's not a pure enough motive. But I'm just being honest.

[kkfern]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

Thank you both for your replies.



My point is, I am exploring but I'm just very skeptical due to having spent a majority of my life duped by fundamentalist christian doctrines and I think that stands in my way. I don't trust my own judgment anymore when it comes to things of the spirit. I think you probably have to throw yourself into it wholeheartedly, but I don't know how or if I can do that anymore. Once bitten, twice shy perhaps? Or maybe I'm just expecting too much... But it seems to me that connection with god shouldn't just be an experience, it should be an experience that changes me.

You have done much to have come as far as you did. That is great. Be careful what you wish for. With change comes work.

Kk

[Jyotir]

Hi Pleroo,

You’ve confirmed that you got the essential bit in what I bolded before. That’s it in a nutshell. After that there are some major paths according to individual preference and temperament, but it all comes down to Love God, Seek God, Serve God - for God’s sake, not for the curiosity of the intellect, etc. (which is a dead-end).

The very Nature of God is empowering and transforming because God’s Will is for all beings which are a multitude of conditionally limited awareness of God, to realize fully the infinite delight of existence that they actually are God. That is the purpose of the Creation. There is nothing else. This is often a difficult concept for some Christians to accept because so much of the conventional doctrine is wrapped around a premise that God is separate, that we are sinners, etc., which (imo) denies the full truth of what the Christ actually represented and taught: That God is everything which includes us, and that God-realization is available to all because we are all That Being in essence already.

That is why when God is invoked ‘for God’s sake’, e.g., the Highest aspect of ourselves, God facilitates this very process as Grace, vs. various versions of guaranteed failure in which the ego cleverly usurps the process as a disguised rationale for why limitation is ‘necessary’ - for instance as an expectation (like you describe i.e., Pentecostal) of what God‘s response will be to any invocation - resulting in frustration and dissatisfaction, like you also describe. Limitation is already a given if you are in the physical. Piling on more limitation isn’t going to help.

Likewise and consistent with that, you were not ‘duped’. You have been changed by experience. It did happen. It‘s just that you may not recognize it yet, but that in retrospect, you simply have grown out of a limiting conventional conception and expectation for experience of what God is. Especially in terms of what was suggested or imposed externally, which played the role of your ‘trusted judgment’, and which has been largely a function of religion for a fledgling humanity.

But that is significantly changing for many people who are awakening to something within themselves. And many of these people have become transitional atheists or agnostics in lieu of a clear grasp of what is displacing those previous conventions. It’s an evolution of consciousness, and we may become self-conscious of it, and accelerate the process. That‘s what prayer and meditation and service is and does - yoga in the true sense.

It is important to realize that this is a direct response within your individual life to become more aware of God, through a greater facility of awareness, and therefore the progression to a new means for a new view - primarily that this movement out of religion and into yoga (if that is what is happening for you) indicates that the search for God becomes more subjective and inwardly directed by the Spirit within, which always seems uncomfortable in this situation for the very reason that the re-orientation is new and unfamiliar.

As far as unfamiliar terminology etc., in my previous (or any) post, I’ll have to ask you to please be more specific, in which case I am happy to clarify.


~ J

[athribiristan]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

Hi. New here, invited by the lovely Miss H, and this is my first post so if its not in the right sub forum, I apologize.

So my question is, do you think that desiring undeniable proof that a personal God exists is the surest way to NOT receive that proof? Just seems to me (as a sort of agnostic who thinks there are reasons to believe such a god exists, but in the absence of any certainty on the matter also thinks there is good reason not to), that if I am earnestly desiring to connect to god/source/whatever (which I am) my mind might easily convince me that I have, even if I haven't. In other words, I don't trust myself not to subconsciously fabricate "proof". So I want to experience connection, but doubt I would trust it even if it happened. Blah.

How do you find a way to detach yourself from the desire for proof, enough so that you won't subconsciously manufacture experiences, without completely killing your motivation to even continue to try and to remain open to connecting?

Clear as mud?

What exactly are you trying to prove? Whose God? I used to be an atheist, then I learned the word agnostic, then I discovered that I didn't have to be bound by someone else's definition of God, so I started focusing on what God meant to me. If you're looking for proof of someone else's God, you'll never find it. Once you figure out what God means to you, you will no longer need proof.

[revolver]

Originally Posted by Thunder Bow

Religion is about control and social order, and has nothing to do with the universe and all its powers. Work on connecting with all there is. Know you are a part of the universe.

Good advice, there is no need to imprison ourselves with beliefs of any kind, truth is forever flowing, it cannot be made into a belief system or religion, where it would only die.