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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Spiritual Development

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  #51  
Old 18-09-2019, 09:01 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne
Thank you iamthat for the response. I can appreciate there is value in detachment and generally love and respect the proponents of ‘let it go-let it flow’.

Maybe I was souled up the river of empathy, lol, for I just cannot fathom detachment and empathy together.
Sigh.., balance must be the key to inner peace .

I agree - balance is the key. Hence the emphasis in some teachings of the middle way. We do not reject the material world but we are also not attached to the material world. We simply act in the material world, doing whatever presents itself to be done.

Detachment does not mean that we have to be aloof and uncaring. And maybe it is easier to feel true compassion for the sufferings of others when we are in a state of detachment. Suffering because other people are suffering does not seem to be an effective path. But I still have a lot to learn about the nature of true compassion.

Peace.
  #52  
Old 18-09-2019, 09:22 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
I agree - balance is the key. Hence the emphasis in some teachings of the middle way. We do not reject the material world but we are also not attached to the material world. We simply act in the material world, doing whatever presents itself to be done.

Your body requires food and water. You need other things as well to have a decent living. Attachment is described as having a strong feeling or affection to something or someone [think of other people, activities, one's own life, body] or a set of values [for clarification: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionari...sh/attachment]. Can you honestly say you are ''not attached to the material world''?

If we take this context of ''non-attachment'' a bit further still, as in looking at religious scripture, we can see how it indicates a monastic life. Those who preached about non-attachment were guru's and monks. Is that the life you are having? It doesn't seem to be the case, because those people aren't supposed to chat on forums [which could be argued is an attachment also]. And even they are not exactly ''not attached to the material world''. It can perhaps be said they have less attachments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Detachment does not mean that we have to be aloof and uncaring. And maybe it is easier to feel true compassion for the sufferings of others when we are in a state of detachment.

Possible in a scientific experiment, less so in any social context [usually, and, thankfully!].
  #53  
Old 19-09-2019, 12:54 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Your body requires food and water. You need other things as well to have a decent living. Attachment is described as having a strong feeling or affection to something or someone [think of other people, activities, one's own life, body] or a set of values [for clarification: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionari...sh/attachment]. Can you honestly say you are ''not attached to the material world''?

If we take this context of ''non-attachment'' a bit further still, as in looking at religious scripture, we can see how it indicates a monastic life. Those who preached about non-attachment were guru's and monks. Is that the life you are having? It doesn't seem to be the case, because those people aren't supposed to chat on forums [which could be argued is an attachment also]. And even they are not exactly ''not attached to the material world''. It can perhaps be said they have less attachments.



Possible in a scientific experiment, less so in any social context [usually, and, thankfully!].

Hi Anne

Many people on the spiritual path learn about healthy and unhealthy attachments. This isn’t something a spiritual community deals with alone, all the same. These issues are formed in the formative years in the ways people are cared for and loved, which then plays out in ways people attach to ‘stuff’ and ‘people’ in unhealthy ways, this goes further than having essential needs met.

I’m an every day person living a normal life but I’ve had to let go of attachments to live more open, clear and authentic. I still engage life but I’m very conscious now of ‘how’ I’m living. The world is evolving so all those ‘places’ of isolation are now becoming mainstream living.

To be in the world but not of it, doesn’t mean your not living a life and engagingvthe world,, it means your living your life no longer attached to unhealthy attachments.

For me living non attached to the material world means I am connected to myself.

Ultimately the monastic lifestyle is a provision for people to shut out everything they eventually address within. It’s a pathway for building what many spiritual people in the real world are understanding and getting, through their own seeking and various alternate pathways. The choices and rules laid down by a belief are really about discipline, focus and training, with a view for something grander beyond this life.

You can be liberated and still participate in the world.
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  #54  
Old 19-09-2019, 09:33 AM
Siemens Siemens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
And yet so few people seem to be genuinely permanently happy or fulfilled.
Peace
First: How can you know how happy other people are? What you say is just a self-righteous prejudice. You can’t look inside other people’s mind. Secondly, how many people that are spiritual fail to be happy? I think there are many too.
Thirdly, even if a worldly life couldn’t lead to genuine and long-term happiness (what I do not believe), leading such a life could be exactly what our higher-selves want. If we as souls choose physical experiences in order to develop, it is just conclusive to conclude that our transformation will be the more intense the more of these experiences we make.

The following quote supports my view:


Quote:
Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH
Hinduism divides the life in 4 stages[...]
Brahmacharyashram (Life of student - to be dedicated solely to the pursuit of learning devoid of pleasures inappropriate for their age/student life ),

Gruhasthashram (Life of householder - full of pleasures and also responsibilities - this stage may have more pleasures of course through rules of game as aforesaid ) ,

Vanprasthashram (Getting ready to retire from worldly pleasure / duties and returning to the society what u gained from it )

Sanyasashram ( Being ready to merge in non-physis / spirit for next journey onward ) .
According this belief experiencing worldly pleasure and making other forms of worldly experiences are an essential part in the course of our evolution. Orienting oneself back toward non-physic experiences is just the last step in the journey of many incarnations. If we as souls choose worldly experiences in order to develop, it is just conclusive to conclude that our transformation will be the more intense the more and longer we make these worldly experiences.
  #55  
Old 19-09-2019, 09:57 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
First: How can you know how happy other people are? What you say is just a self-righteous prejudice. You can’t look inside other people’s mind. Secondly, how many people that are spiritual fail to be happy? I think there are many too.

Many spiritual narratives run on such assumptions, Siemens. Usually, a stark contrast is necessary; of believer vs. non-believer or those on the path vs. those that aren't. It can present itself as a be-all-end-all miracle cure. I think a lot of people in this world can be happy without religious beliefs. People that do have beliefs can be unhappy, so we have to look at other things to understand human happiness, which seems to depends on simple things:
  • Meaningful relationships
  • Purpose in life
  • A job and income
  • Nice place to live in
  • Good health
None of these depend on religious beliefs, on detachment, or meditation.
  #56  
Old 19-09-2019, 02:18 PM
Anne Anne is offline
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Thank you Davidsun; I grew up reading Josemaría Escrivá so maybe I understand a little bit of your snippet.

And many thanks to JustBe for your post. Viewing the conundrum as healthy vs. non-healthy (attachment) is clarifying, and brings the point home.

I am grateful.
  #57  
Old 19-09-2019, 02:49 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
First: How can you know how happy other people are? What you say is just a self-righteous prejudice. You can’t look inside other people’s mind. Secondly, how many people that are spiritual fail to be happy? I think there are many too.
Thirdly, even if a worldly life couldn’t lead to genuine and long-term happiness (what I do not believe), leading such a life could be exactly what our higher-selves want. If we as souls choose physical experiences in order to develop, it is just conclusive to conclude that our transformation will be the more intense the more of these experiences we make.

The following quote supports my view:



According this belief experiencing worldly pleasure and making other forms of worldly experiences are an essential part in the course of our evolution. Orienting oneself back toward non-physic experiences is just the last step in the journey of many incarnations. If we as souls choose worldly experiences in order to develop, it is just conclusive to conclude that our transformation will be the more intense the more and longer we make these worldly experiences.
Yah, maan!

Here's my view relating to such matters:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=311
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  #58  
Old 19-09-2019, 02:51 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne
Thank you Davidsun; I grew up reading Josemaría Escrivá so maybe I understand a little bit of your snippet.

And many thanks to JustBe for your post. Viewing the conundrum as healthy vs. non-healthy (attachment) is clarifying, and brings the point home.

I am grateful.
Josemaría Escrivá is 'on' (THE ) 'track' (IMO)
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  #59  
Old 19-09-2019, 03:11 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Your body requires food and water. You need other things as well to have a decent living. Attachment is described as having a strong feeling or affection to something or someone [think of other people, activities, one's own life, body] or a set of values [for clarification: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionari...sh/attachment]. Can you honestly say you are ''not attached to the material world''?
Speaking of the value of 'bodily' needs, pleasures, etc., Altair, from my treatise (there's more pertaining to the subject in there, of course):
To the degree that one has done that, in other words to the degree that one has, as the apostle Paul put it, “put off the old man … and put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of 'him' that created him” (Colossians 3:9-10), one naturally (quite logically) assigns secondary status to one’s own as well as others’ physiosocial desire-n-aversion based impulses and (so) chooses not to ‘act’ on them if and when doing so would detract from or sully possibilities for optimal and incremental experience and expression of Love and Joy in said self-transcendental, all‑inclusive sense. One therefore (also quite logically) naturally becomes more environmentally responsible and pragmatically ethical, more conscientiously self‑disciplined (i.e. less shortsightedly self and/or other-self indulge-ent) in relation to every aspect of The Flow of Life one becomes aware of.

Such kind of psychospiritual development results in one’s acting to salutarily enhance the creative functionality of whoever or whatever one may singularly or plurally be relationally involved with, which of course means doing whatever one can to help as well as assistively support others who help to protect those that are vulnerable, heal those that are sick or injured, nurture those who are immature and educate those who are unaware of the nature and extent of their connection to and with others in context of Life’s Matrixial Flow. There may therefore indeed be times and circumstances when and where desisting from seeking as well as foregoing available pleasures, comforts, gains, etc. and risking as well as voluntarily accepting consequent stresses, pains, losses, etc., even to the point of incurring significant physiosocial liabilities, is what one thinks and feels is the most Love and Joy augmenting choice one can make, and therefore elects to do with such goals in mind and heart. What devoted parents, friends, teachers, care-providers and public servants of all kinds often do as a matter of course provides exemplary illustration in this regard.*

[Footnote*:*Not that one has the power to do everything one might wish to along such lines, mind you: “It is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.” (II Corinthians 8:12) Making the most of what one is capable of at any given point is the best anyone can aim for.]
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  #60  
Old 19-09-2019, 03:52 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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From my perspective, acting responsibly and ethically don't really reduce or stand opposed to embracing pleasure and the world. It is the appreciation of the world and its creatures [animals and people] that help us make ethical decisions in this world. For me, it is not at all about taking a ''higher'' perspective. It's about standing firmly with one's feet on the ground and being connected to Earth and to life.
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