Does ethics transcend the realm of religion?

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by Gem

I'm glad you can express your personal values in this way.

I thank you for your approval Gem; it is gratifying. My personal values have meaning only for me though. Transcendent values are shared by a community and I don't feel that we need to 'establish' what these values are -- they are already established! Truth is True and knowledge is known.
I sense that the rules of organized Religion and systematized Ethics have been used AGAINST people far too often. Judgement is (always?) a tool of division and anti-thetical to 'unity'. We can use the rules as a framework for our free expression or as a means to condemn one another. The choice is clear; one way leads to peace, the other to misery.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

I thank you for your approval Gem; it is gratifying. My personal values have meaning only for me though. Transcendent values are shared by a community and I don't feel that we need to 'establish' what these values are -- they are already established!

Yep. It's good to know that individual personal values only pertain to that particular individual, because often, people impose their personal values upon others.

I think you said it better and I agree that transcedant virtues are established, or in other words integral to human nature.

I sense that the rules of organized Religion and systematized Ethics have been used AGAINST people far too often. Judgement is (always?) a tool of division and anti-thetical to 'unity'. We can use the rules as a framework for our free expression or as a means to condemn one another. The choice is clear; one way leads to peace, the other to misery.

There was a photo on the front page of a Sydney newspaper today of a young man who attended a protest against a movie which made that was insulting to the Prophet Mumummud.

He held a placard which read 'Behead Those Who Insult The Prophet". This young child holds the same sign actually... and there is an infant beside him.

I have nothing against Islam or Muhummud, so don't cut off my head, but I feel this depiction illustrates what you said.

In a case such as this, the child is taught moral values, and in the end 'The Prophet' is used as a means of justifying killing people... God has always been used to justify such things by all sorts of religions... and I recall how His Name was on the lips of Americans when they started their war on terror.

Of course, I don't condone it because of the ethical dilemma it raises. I would approach this dilemma by referring to the established virtues you mentioned, and see if such a wish was congruent with them, but other people turn to their religious texts in the same way as I would question it on compassionate grounds.

Originally Posted by innerlight

You mean the group that runs the Dalai llama's page posted it on his Facebook. I'm sure it more then likely was not the Dalai Llama.

Correct.

Originally Posted by Gem

As an example lets just use the vegitarian. They have reasons for being vegitarian, say, cruelty to animals... and can justify their ethical stance, thus jusyifying their personal morals, by refeerencing a virtue which trancends ther personal code. Then they can say 'compassion' inspires me to a moral code of vegitarianizm because cruelty to animals is not compassionate.

It's an interestinf web, but just because the core of ethics trancends religious and personal ethics, it doesn't solve ethical dilemmas, as the trancedental virtues are what justifies them.

Interesting you bring the food issue up. Yes, I think it is wise to live a vegan lifestyle for ethical and health reasons.

Interesting point about the core of ethics transcending religious and personal values. Yes, I agree.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Of course, one doesn't need religion to have ethics. Time to visit Europe and you guys will see the light.

Good vibrations to you!

Originally Posted by Buzz

Ethics arising naturally and unforced strike me as working across the boards. It kinda is a rule of thumb for stuff of this nature, if it works for one it works for all. Integral to human conscience....darn good possibility.

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

It is my understanding that "religion" is a systematized belief system which is generally shared by some number of people (otherwise we might consider it a 'personal code of conduct' or somesuch). Ethics is said to be: "a branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong ...", according to WIKI-P. They seem nearly identical to me; the one emphasizes 'divinity', and the other 'reason'.
The problem that arises from each is that they are predominately concerned with RULES. Guidelines and such are fine for helping us to find our way when we are uncertain, but the dogmatic belief that 'transgression' of the rules is damnable and "bad" tends to enslave us rather than enrich
our experience of life. We are not meant to be enslaved to the dictates of 'rules'. The purpose of rules is to SERVE. We are alive, and my allegiance is with Life, not some words on a paper. We must transend the limitations of the rules; not in order to break them, but to better express the "love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness" that we are capable of. IMHO

Rules can be viewed as guidelines. Rules is defined in certain literature as a tendency, not an absolute; a rule can be thought of as a shorted version of rule of thumb.

Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb

A rule of thumb is a principle with broad application that is not intended to be strictly accurate or reliable for every situation.

I agree with what you are saying. Thank you sharing. The ethical principles I practice are:

Non-harming
Truthfulness
Generosity
Preservation of vital life energy, mindful sexuality
Non-attachment

Purity
Contentment
Physical practice to improve mental discipline
Diligent study
Honoring the Most High

No rules, principles to apply every moment.

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Ethics do indeed go beyond religion because these are qualities of humanity.

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Religion should seek to inspire these high qualities in people (No point following any religion that doesn't), but the qualities themselves transcend religion.

Yes and encourage the person to connect with his/her intuition via a tried-and-true practice, such as Yoga, meditation, or another mind/body/spirit practice.

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Humanism? No, his realm of thinking is implying, in my judgement, that there is a big difference between spirituality and organised religion. I perceive the implication is that organised religion, regardless of its positive effects, also contributes to division and discord. You don't need to subscribe to any religion to acquire and hold the high ethical values every human being should aspire to, those of love, service, compassion and brotherhood.

Interesting. I can see that.

Originally Posted by Gem

I met a philosopher once, who asked me, do you know that philosophy only has one reasonable discussion? I said, no I didn't, what discussion is that? Ethics, he said (well, I say 'he' but he wore womens clothing). I asked, what makes it so reasoned? And 'she said, it applies to everyone regardless of their personal values.
I'm glad you can express your personal values in this way. I believe that to live by virtuous convictions requires a person to have their own personal values.
Sometimes, personal values are not virtuous though... and thats where we need to consider if our personal values are actually congruent with the transcendental virtues like love kindness and compassion... but people sometimes turn to their texts or politics or religions instead.

Yes, compassion centered thoughts.

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

Transcendent values are shared by a community and I don't feel that we need to 'establish' what these values are -- they are already established! Truth is True and knowledge is known.
We can use the rules as a framework for our free expression or as a means to condemn one another. The choice is clear; one way leads to peace, the other to misery.

Assisting with the creation of heaven on Earth. As the consciousness of all living organisms is interconnected, how we treat other sentient beings is how we are treating ourselves. Peace starts within the individual.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by BuekerC1

This way of thinking seems to enter into the realm of humanism. Do you think morality and the practice of ethics goes beyond the scope of the traditional world religions? And why.

The religion, morals and ethics of our societies are where we obtain our deeply held beliefs as individuals. For instance, many believe in concepts like ego, True Self, reincarnation, etc which originate from the 60s surge of Eastern religious belief mixing with Western culture, and that movement continues to grow today. It's part of our society, just as ethics and morals are. Humanism is also part of our society as well as religion, and instead of attempting to remove one I would rather we just try to live together in peace regardless of how different our ideas are.

Seeking an ideal set of ethics, morals, spiritual beliefs, etc for all is part of the development of ideologies. It seeks to 'go beyond' the former with the belief that the new will be better than the old. But as history shows, all ideologies leave someone out, regardless of how inclusive they seem to be.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

But as history shows, all ideologies leave someone out, regardless of how inclusive they seem to be.

yeah I was looking today at how things are going and thinking 'geez I'm going to be left out AGAIN, aren't I?' Makes me very sad...

[Arcturus]

haven't read the thread so excuse any repeats...the 10 commandments could be said to be a code of ethics. most, i think, spiritural/cultural traditions have some kind of code of ethics, or commandments, designed to allow basic human interection without killing each other. its kind of pointing out the obvious but in our slumber we digress and obvious footnotes become necessary just as a tap on the shoulder. why are they necessary? man cannot govern himself so we need policing and ethics to stop us destroying ourselves altogether.

[inspirit]

Ethics should be rooted in belief God and the principals of loving God and loving one another as well as other religious beliefs. But that doesn't mean that religion is the only source of ethics and values.

Originally Posted by BuekerC1

On September 10, 2012 the Dalai Lama posted on his Facebook page that

All the world’s major religions, with their emphasis on love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.

This way of thinking seems to enter into the realm of humanism. Do you think morality and the practice of ethics goes beyond the scope of the traditional world religions? And why.

I think that "morality" is "the best way to do things to reach a better world, to be better people as society". If that's the case, morality is just a part of normal human existence.

[sunsoul]

Hans Kung and the Global Ethic interesting to read up on in this field..

[wmsm]

Originally Posted by BuekerC1

On September 10, 2012 the Dalai Lama posted on his Facebook page that

All the world’s major religions, with their emphasis on love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.

This way of thinking seems to enter into the realm of humanism. Do you think morality and the practice of ethics goes beyond the scope of the traditional world religions? And why.

Religion by conscious and spiritual review was introduced into human life due to human behavior as a consequence of wanting to be powerful and by implementing and applying a powerful condition called Science.

All religious ancient information has documentation that was secretive, philosophical and also demonstrates an ancient awareness of creation and also scientific expression.

Religion was taught as a condition to remember our natural spiritual life circumstance, to revere the condition as the only purpose of our life and self manifestation as a spirit into the organic life condition. Spiritual Leaders therefore knew that it was important not to alter any aspect of creation as it was holy by Philosophical/scientific review.

The condition for civilization provides us all with the evidence that human greed and human egotism caused the natural tribal community to separate from its natural and normal spiritual living circumstance to build huge cities, to have luxuries and to obtain self status and power as these communities.

It meant that human beings had a huge family unit that was overthrown into a condition of unnatural leadership that involved cruel and inhumane tactics of abuse and overthrow. The civilization used as a condition to go to war as a group to overthrow other land holders and communities for the sake of greed and powermongering.

The building technique called a Holy secret related to a psychic/spiritual condition of reading spirit messages called RECORDS that related to the changing/levitation of stone. The ancient mind accessed these records, used the applications of stone levitation via Pyramids and Temple layouts that when reviewed look like radio structures and levitated stone, but also caused a UFO condition of converting atmospheric signals that burnt the atmosphere that also incinerated life.

This condition was witnessed in public, human life attacked by a plague of bleeding skin as a condition, and also evil spirits came out of the atmosphere and harmed them.

This is the religious condition gained as both a teaching and a real life experience.

The human mind and spiritual consciousness is now once again aware that the evil choice of applying science and scientific gain for invention and personal wealth and communal living is destroying our spiritual and natural existence.

No longer is our spirit supported by the ancient religious teachings taught as a Buddhists approach and a Buddhist method of self informing many world leaders about the evil choice that ancient human beings caused us to be involved in.

Speaking and teaching morality is far from a spiritual truth that today's community is involved in, as many spiritual Leaders are themselves involved in self tactics for gaining resources via an attempt upon our spiritual existence and its decline into its own immorality and destruction by the alteration of the natural atmospheric body that protects and allows our spirit to exist.