Integrate or Renounce .

[muffin]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Did you know that it's easier to describe a black hole than is it to describe how a human comes to a decision?

Good afternoon Greenslade

And you wonder why people don't listen to themselves, with all that going on up there

Originally Posted by muffin

Good afternoon Greenslade

And you wonder why people don't listen to themselves, with all that going on up there

It's morning here Muffin, but good afternoon to you anyway.

I'll let you into a little secret, if people thought about how awesome they were already these forms would take a serious hit. There's a mini galaxy in your head.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Words create worlds, Moonglow. Who or what is this "just this guy?"

I don't say I'm Spiritual any more because I want to get my head out of that particular box, but then the box is what I perceive to be Spiritual or not. When All That Is is Spiritual, what then? When being "just that guy", sensing energies, being 'infectious' or inspirational.... All of those are aspects of who and what we are. And more. Did you know that it's easier to describe a black hole than is it to describe how a human comes to a decision?

Just think, we came from Spirit and we're here. When we pop our clogs we'll go back up there, no work needed. Nature is doing the work, not us and when you think about it that little thought changes everything.

Hi Greenslade,

Being "just this guy" is in a way taking pressure off myself to be more then who and what I am being at present.

It is not blowing the self off, it is in a way embracing the self. The thing I see and the way I take some of what "being spiritual" or being anything in particular is that it limits myself and places in the mind that somehow have to live up to those standards.

It is like when someone may ask;Who are you? And another responds by telling what he/she does for a living. Then would be told; that is what you do, but who are you?

I gone through taking on identies and yes still have one but it is more flexible.
I recongnized aspect of my being. Some aspects like to explore the ethereal wonders and experience the spiritual parts. Others aspects like experiencing and exploring this physical existence. All of this is life unfolding at present. Al just what this guy brings to himself, brings to others, and is given, as I see it at present.

I don't know what all this entails. Some things are learned and some things have yet to be revealed. In a way, don't have to know because it is not for me.
I don't feel Spirit places requirements.

Nature will do what it will anyways. Sometimes it is nice to get a heads up, but this is not always the case and so do what I can to pay attention and work with I what may come and/or given.

Sure there are things that serve and are beneficial to do or not. These seems at times an individual thing, at others just good sense.

There can be overthinking about it, in the sense of always questioning what may arise and placing pressure upon the self to know. Can be interesting for conversation, but can also stall out the process or the enjoyment of it just being there.

If we never take the action or effort, then how can it be decided to be this or that or move on? Upon this accepting whatever it may be into or lives or leaving it be?

Everything has its place and purpose, otherwise, wonder, if not, then why is it here? If not for me, may be for another. But if one element is missing from the mix, then seems there isn't much of a rainbow. (So to speak).

Thank you

[muffin]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

It's morning here Muffin, but good afternoon to you anyway.

I'll let you into a little secret, if people thought about how awesome they were already these forms would take a serious hit. There's a mini galaxy in your head.

Good morning

Thanks, already know that one
I don't think so they would find something to talk about, got to keep busy.
Head/body is to keep you grounded or you could end up floating around anywhere.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Everything is individuality, identification with that individuality and perception of self and others from there. To be honest I think we'd become unhinged if it were otherwise, not super-Spiritual. We can become attached to and identify with the concept of no-Self/self.

For sure we'd become a little unhinged if we didn't identify to some extent, I thought you wanted to go deeper into why we do .

Why do you think one falls into self identification .. what's the reason / purpose / result .



x daz x

Originally Posted by Moonglow

There can be overthinking about it, in the sense of always questioning what may arise and placing pressure upon the self to know. Can be interesting for conversation, but can also stall out the process or the enjoyment of it just being there.

Someone asked me a question and quite frankly it stalled my head for a while, but the more I thought about it the more it made sense not to think abut it. If that makes sense.

"Can we not simply exist?" Do we have to exist as.... something? Do we have to exist as a Spiritual person with this driving force to change the Universe for the better, or can we just stop all that? Can we not be a human one moment, deeply Spiritual the next and playing in the puddles in a different one? Because those are all aspects of ourselves - aspects. Enjoying having a laugh with someone because we have a personality.... Having a personality may not be deeply Spiritual and indeed some might say it's a part of the false/lower self but in interaction and harmony with a fellow Spirit on the Journey?

When I started this Journey a wise man said to me "Take what resonates with you as your own, leave the rest behind because it is not yours." I keep that with me today because lately there's been a massive clearing out of so many things in my Life. I don't feel any more Spiritual because I can put posts on the forum, quite frankly it doesn't do anything for me at all. I want to leave the word behind because it belongs to an old paradigm, I want to find new paradigms and so need new ways of expression and understanding.

Everything is there but has no inherent purpose of its own, we give it purpose or attach importance. And it is about the rainbow, being able to encompass the wide range of vibrations that we can experience. A monochromatic rainbow isn't a rainbow any more. Asking "Who are you?" makes us wonder and think about ourselves and whether we impose limits on ourselves or not. One element missing from the mix doesn't feel like whole any more.

Originally Posted by muffin

Good morning

Thanks, already know that one
I don't think so they would find something to talk about, got to keep busy.
Head/body is to keep you grounded or you could end up floating around anywhere.

God day, it saves the confusion.

But isn't it more fun to be in two places at the same time?

Originally Posted by God-Like

For sure we'd become a little unhinged if we didn't identify to some extent, I thought you wanted to go deeper into why we do .

Why do you think one falls into self identification .. what's the reason / purpose / result .



x daz x

The story goes that once upon a time there was a single consciousness, all alone in the night. Then that single consciousness did something that changed the Universe forever - it asked the question "Who Am I?" In order to answer this question it had to split itself into two so that it could understand itself. While that may sound a little fanciful it explains a lot and to me it's quite relevant here. Could we 'see' ourselves if we were no individuality or perception of self? How does God perceive himself, as one single being/consciousness, as an amalgam of individual consciousnesses plus his own, all of the above?

How different would any of our existences be if we spent our entire Lives alone? You wouldn't be able to ask that question, perhaps you'd never have thought about it in the first place. There is no 'I' to be Spiritual, Loving, caring..... if there is no 'I'. Would good and evil exist if there was no 'I' to be good and vice versa? Echoes and reflections of self realisation and expression, all expanding consciousness.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Yes, I believe unless one is completely delusional then there is potentially some kind of artificial reflection going on . It's for some rather do as I say rather than do as I do lol .

I am not on a witch hunt regarding supposed masters who claim this and claim that, but there are holes in many of their expressions / actions that don't add up nor reflect a bliss bunny detached kinda soul ..

Hello Daz, yes, agreed.
I also see plenty of the zoned-out bunny detached types who seem equally off to me, perhaps even far more so. If someone is in denial by choice (let's pick on Niz), then at least you know he knows, at least on some level, that he's choosing denial whilst he has a smoke

Whereas the others are so far deep in it, they can't even see where they are. Their vision is completely obscured by the stuff they're buried in. Those folks are often just disturbing in their level of sustained fantasy and artifice.

Your right in my eyes regarding separation and this is why I have never resonated with the neti neti approach where one weeds out the falsities and the illusory traits .

Why would anyone entertain neti neti unless one has read about the real Self somewhere?

Ok...first you know I agree with you at the overall level.
And I agree that the way the vast majority of folks do neti neti is fallacious and even destructive and harmful...denying the bits they don't like and ignoring their iniquities and challenges. Rather than working with those bits, struggling with them, and transmuting the dross into tempered steel. I don't feel the avoidant approach has a lot of spiritual integrity and I think it is generally huge misdirection on folks' personal spiritual journeys, which is a shame. It's make-believe.

BUT I do think there is one useful and very powerful neti neti approach.
And I think everyone passes through it eventually. Though at any given time some will have not a clue what I'm on about, LOL.

And that approach is this...becoming aware of what we initially conceive of as our higher selves or our true selves in spirit. Becoming intimately aware of who we are "in spirit" and contrasting this with who we are on the ground, day-to-day. Coming to realise ever more fully that our "true selves" "in spirit" as just us. Just us. Just who we truly are, full stop. This brings us smack up against realising at first just on occasion, then nightly, and eventually with every moment, that there is a fundamental integrity gap that WE CREATE and that we either choose to maintain or else that we choose to bridge and to close, entirely depending on our choices. And that it is entirely on us to close this integrity gap and to bring union within. No one else can do that for us. It's called ownership. It's being who we are, consciously and by choice. Even when it's hard...yes, particularly then.

To be honest, this is the entire and sole purpose of neti neti IMO. To realise the integrity gap that we ourselves have manifested and to bring union within. Once we attain this realisation at the level of the awakened heart and manifest union in our waking lives, there is not much use for it...unless we come to another area or pocket or level of disunion.

Using neti neti to avoid ever coming to realisation of the integrity gap, or using it to sustain the gap (e.g., Niz: it's just a body thing) is useless IMO, or worse than useless...it's harmful even. Whatever causes or supports one "On the Turning Away" (PF) from the truth and beauty and goodness of who they are and bringing that forward, no matter the struggle...well, some call it a moral wrong and some call it misalignment with spirit. It's all the same, even if some folks prefer certain words to others.

This is potentially what Ron Hubbard was on about when doing his life review from the world of spirit .

His mission if you can call it that was to draw people into his paradigm so that at one point they would think for themselves rather than follow his teachings .

In some way that is what niz said and that was to put his book down and find it out for yourself .. although he continued to have further books published lol .

LOL...hahaha So...put your book down and find out, but not till you've first bought & read all of mine, eh?

When I had Osho turn up and I said in another thread about his rolls royce collection, I also read that when the poop hit the fan and he went into isolation he rarely spoke to the public, instead he buried himself in studying the scriptures / doctrines ..

I am kinda thinking to my self, why would a Self realized man who teaches about Self and spirituality and all that jazz need to spend time studying spirituality?

I haven't studied Self, consciousness at all . Why would one need to?

Yer...maybe it's because they're at the neti neti stage I mentioned. Hopefully they're not engaging in the turning away from their own integrity gap. Some linger there for ages before they get a move on to addressing those bits they've ignored or sworn off.

I think this is where certain problemo's come from and that is similar to the same problemo's for those that study the bible or any religious doctrines . What happens is that there is to a degree brainwashing occurring if they believe what is written . I wonder how many masters or christians or whatever would say what they say if they had never read the bible or referred to spiritual doctrines past down over the centuries .

x daz x

Good question. They'd say none of the rubbish and only the true bits, I'd reckon...the bits on authentic love and seeking the highest good of all, equally. That would lead to a lot of clarification on right-aligned word and deed...as well as intent and thought. And the rest would just need to be binned.

I love the learning and the mysticism in these old traditions, but I truly almost cannot stomach the amount of nastiness and abuse you often have to take in order to have an opinion that doesn't kowtow to the old ways and the old, entrenched beliefs that you don't really have to respect everyone's humanity equally.

As soon as you even mention your opinion (as if you have a right to it...!), how quickly so many turn vicious and nasty. In particular, I find when you offer your thoughtful opinion, you get a very good insight into people who readily seek to treat you as less worthy of respect or dignity, or their time or courtesy. Generally speaking. But also particularly when you are a woman, and also a single woman, and also a single mum. LOL! If I were a woman of colour, there'd be that too, no doubt.

It's interesting (in a rather droll, tedious, and contemptible way) how so many bring the worst of their judgment and prejudice to their "houses of worship". Christians always say Sunday is the most segregated day of the week, after all. And it's the same everywhere...very few come with mind and heart wide open, accepting of difference and yet whilst retaining the ability to articulate what is right-aligned and what is misaligned -- i.e. toward the right-alignment and authentic love that so many rage against (on ALL sides).

Circling back around....

I also get vile treatment and hostility for my support of representative democracy by extreme cultural and moral relativists, who cannot allow for concepts like universal human rights or the concepts of right-alignment and misalignment. If we cannot articulate, for example, that a direct subversion of democracy is a threat to all (and particularly those who now live under the subversion and lack the rights of democratic citizenry that all should have), then we have lost the ability to articulate what is a moral good and a moral wrong. If we cannot or can no longer distinguish these two things in even the most egregious situation, then our legal system can also no longer make these determinations...and without the integrity of our legal institutions, we are done for. Nothing vital comes into being without effort, nor stands on it own and just magically perpetrates itself without a hitch...this sort of assumption is the height of arrogance, laziness, and apathy on our part. Everything right-aligned ultimately stands on the integrity of every society AND of every person...and everything misaligned ultimately stands on the integrity gap of every society AND of every person. Every person counts.

Whether it's the oppression of corrupt plutocracies (from my past lives as a freedom fighter) and the various corrupt, exploitative cultural, ideological, and/or religious regimes (look around the world today) -- or whether it's the avoidant denial of the fullness of one's own humanity by said individual on his or her spiritual journey...these two things are much more closely linked that many realise. It always comes down to moral clarity of the people, AND to the moral clarity of every person. To the ability to discern and take ownership of right-alignment and misalignment, on any level. And that is why the misdirection of the "Niz" neti neti that is so commonplace, is so insidious and so spiritually caustic and damaging.

Peace & blessings Dazzer
7L

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Someone asked me a question and quite frankly it stalled my head for a while, but the more I thought about it the more it made sense not to think abut it. If that makes sense.

"Can we not simply exist?" Do we have to exist as.... something? Do we have to exist as a Spiritual person with this driving force to change the Universe for the better, or can we just stop all that? Can we not be a human one moment, deeply Spiritual the next and playing in the puddles in a different one? Because those are all aspects of ourselves - aspects. Enjoying having a laugh with someone because we have a personality.... Having a personality may not be deeply Spiritual and indeed some might say it's a part of the false/lower self but in interaction and harmony with a fellow Spirit on the Journey?

When I started this Journey a wise man said to me "Take what resonates with you as your own, leave the rest behind because it is not yours." I keep that with me today because lately there's been a massive clearing out of so many things in my Life. I don't feel any more Spiritual because I can put posts on the forum, quite frankly it doesn't do anything for me at all. I want to leave the word behind because it belongs to an old paradigm, I want to find new paradigms and so need new ways of expression and understanding.

Everything is there but has no inherent purpose of its own, we give it purpose or attach importance. And it is about the rainbow, being able to encompass the wide range of vibrations that we can experience. A monochromatic rainbow isn't a rainbow any more. Asking "Who are you?" makes us wonder and think about ourselves and whether we impose limits on ourselves or not. One element missing from the mix doesn't feel like whole any more.

Greetings Greenslade,

Take what is yours and leave what is for another to be theirs is something that came to me many years ago. It has come in handy to help remember and sort things out.

I exist, as does everything else. The question seems not whether this is so, but in what way one may identify or not with this existence.


If we are Spirit and some striving to connect to Spirit, then feel in what manner identies or not can be important. Important in the sense of seeing ones own reflection of ones own thoughts.

Through the thoughts one creates ones world, or atleast the outlook upon such.
There are those that point to quieting the mind. I see this as recognizing the thoughts with in and how they can create my perspective upon things. Not a bad/good thing, just an influence.

When being quiet, the world around me takes on a different feel. I am not trying to have it be any other way then it is as it unfolds before me. No need to appease it, change it, or even figure it out, just existing with in it.

But, I also realize living in a world that is interactive. Not only humans, but other living creatures and beings have their own take and flavor to add to the mix. But are any other living being questioning its existence, besides humans?

Does a dog wonder what it is to be a dog or a tree? Yes things are passed on to create the form and being, but somewhere humans started questioning about their own existence. Not all, but enough to get the energy rolling with in the consciousness.

An identity crisis of sorts? A realization that we are of Spirit/God or something that lives on beyond this physical form? Not sure, for have never really questioned whether I exist or not for real.

Sure I have taken on roles and still do a bit according to what crowd I may be in. But, I always come through, people see it and feel, as I do them. Some transparent, some subtle, some obvious. There is a reflection that shines from all of the person with in.

Who one my think or know oneself to be seems to change anyways, IMO. Whether it be through aging, experiences in life, and/or what one becomes aware of with in and with out.

People may talk about his/her favorite guru/teacher, speaker, the one that inspires and speaks a truth for him/her self. Although some may say similar things it seems the one(s) that resonate with the self that draws the attention.
Seems an individual attraction or choice. Even if he/she speaks about no identity, yet here one is identifying with it. Find this thought a bit funny in way for me.

Feel at a point where I prefer to just enjoy the rainbow. For it seems that is what life reflects, the many colors that shine through the prism/mist.