So, God wants us to be perfect, right?

[SoulGenesis]

"perfectly^^ mystic"

Bob Marley - Natural Mystic

[quote=SoulGenesis]
There's nothing you can know that isn't known
Nothing you can see that isn't shown
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy[/quote]Yes it is.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there GS...we are getting into some interesting aspects so I'll just try to stick to what strikes me...OK, on the above, what strikes me is that I have never had too much of a problem recognising and accepting the humanity of others, even the full humanity. It's not always pretty, aspects of it may somewhat repulse me or leave me underwhelmed, but I can see the fullness of it and there is usually some good somewhere in there at any given time. But this understanding requires focus and some level of basic psychic awareness and penetration or interbeing with others and with the collective. Sometimes it's the collective you essentially stay with energetically when the individual is hostile or aggressive, so that you can care for yourself whilst still keeping their basic humanity in mind.

But this is not a skill that everyone has nor has tended to or developed. Particularly if privileged, it is really down to the individual as to whether they stretch for others and accord them equal worth. As human society and culture at present will not require that of them.

So the civilising and humanising skill of seeing the basic humanity of others is something that is more commonly a feature or silver lining of distance from centre. And that is yet another reason that, in general, hierarchies are bad news, particularly deep and narrow ones.

Hi 7L.



Stupid forum, spent ages replying and ended up with a blank post. Grrr.


I'm actually grateful because I've had people who have given me snippets of wisdom that have served me very well. I like the smallest of snippets because they're easy to carry and become like the seeds of a fractal that can be zoomed in or out of to infinity. One of those snippets was "They're only mad at you because they're missing something." No it's not always pretty but underwhelmed? If there is a Soul 'in there', how different is our perspective from that point of view? If they're 'missing something' and I react in kind, surely that means I'm missing something too and if so what? If something does repulse me, isn't that my perspective? Because Spirituality will tell me that there's far more going on behind the mask than I can know of, so is repulsion a sign of my ignorance or non-acceptance? Or a reminder that I'm human after all?

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

It is indeed the primordial stuff, the stuff of pure potentiality.

Good old humanity.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I think one day (in some more realised and balanced place) there will be less talk of the ills of the body and the limits of physicality, because our bodies will better reflect the integrity of our loving consciousness as a people. This is still a work in process. But once that begins to occur, the holistic perspective will make ever more sense.

A lot of this struggle to accept the fullness of what is and of what we are, without duality, will come not from the physical aspects -- which may see great improvement one day fairly soon -- but will be located in the struggle to master the endlessly addictive nature of the "7 deadly sins", which tend toward infinity and can never be appeased or satisfied in the physical realm. There will be a long road to acceptance IMO of the fact that the lion's share of these things involve a psychological and spiritual core with physical feedbacks and interactions...that it ultimately will require hard choices taken daily and loads of cultural and community level supports. I believe the abuse victims and various addiction support groups have probably long since realised this. Thus, the obstacles to realisation (broadly and specifically) will first require we address many social ills and injustices as a collective but regarding desire and addiction, it will ultimately still come down to personal responsibility and personal choices taken every day. Conscious choices to treat others with regard and respect, and to treat their highest good equally to own's own -- never less than.

Society is a monolithic entropic system and it's coming apart at the seams. Ironically, often what's being done to try and save it and put it back together is becoming a part of what's tearing it apart - there is never negative entropy. Once upon a time people knew their place in society and made themselves comfortable, and now that's eroding slowly but surely. Lord of the Flies has come to town. Social justice had brought crime, so while women are becoming more equal (and admittedly there's still work to be done on that score) political correctness has become a fascism and crime is rising. Funding for support groups is falling and more and more support groups are struggling to cope with rising numbers and the shortage of funding.


While some social injustices are being addressed that weren't before the scales have been tipped in another direction. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the actual numbers are kept pretty much a secret by the government. What isn't public knowledge is the number of soldiers who are committing suicide because of PTSD and the effects of being forgotten about, or the number of children below the poverty line....


The question for me is what's happening, is this becoming more about survival than anything else and how will that affect so many things? Are we going to have loving consciousness when the majority are on the breadline? Entropy is not a good basis for Utopia. Crime is on the rise for various reasons, but it looks very much like young people are becoming more feral nowadays and even good manners is a thing of the past. I think we're going very much in the opposite direction of balance, society is becoming more polarised.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I think it's part of the larger trend toward transparency in all things. As more comes to the fore, more can be consciously honoured and dealt with, or at least we can begin to do so.

Not sure about transparency in all things though, but human nature yet finds a way to break through the tarmac and to search for the sun.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yes. I didn't say it would make things right or automatically produce reconciliation in any one lifetime. To truly do so would require many other things coming into being, such as a mutuality of ownership, of forgiveness, contrition and/or repentance where applicable, of engagement, and of striving to make amends and to reconcile.

This may not be possible in one lifetime if one party was murdered, LOL. Or if one party experienced a violent attack on close friends or family members...it may take more than one lifetime to deal with these things.

But if we have done what we can do on our end, then we are ready to go to the party (of awareness and engagement in authentic love). And the other folks can get there when they get there, even as we continue to reach out when/wherever. It's like our many guides and fellow travellers...they are already at the party but they still keep an eye on earth as we've largely not arrived or even got ready to leave the house.

To be honest I find a huge conflict in this. If there are Karmic Obligations at play what then? And surely the need for forgiveness and repentance is very human, because if we were as Spiritual as we'd like to think we are there would be no need for forgiveness or reconciliation. Those things are born of judgement and perhaps even ignorance, aren't they? We might feel as though there's been some wrong-doing going on but Spiritually it makes no sense.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I agree it's too painful at times to remember. But I also feel pretty strongly that it's not really resolved to a level we can ultimately live with or accept at the deepest levels until we CAN remember (the salient aspects) and until we have what we need, adequately. Such as we are able to be an active participant in taking key conscious choices. Of course, at this point, IMO we also need to be consciously walking the path (our own version of it) of authentic love.

So, we may be lagging for lifetimes w/regard to others w/whom we have much to resolve and heal, mutually. Whilst we beat, murder, use, or abuse them...perhaps whilst we also withhold forgiveness of these same folks or others because we are simply not there yet. Or maybe we'll be waiting round on them for ages. Whether either of these and the natural pain that would ensue all round is bearable and even meaningful and sublimely joyful nonetheless largely comes down to whether we choose authentic love toward self and others or not -- and particularly whilst we are not receiving lovingkindness from equanimity from some others, hahaha. That's exactly where the pedal meets the metal. It all comes down to what are you willing to part with, or to have bent or broken? What are you willing to let anything and anyone take from you of yourself? (so to speak...as we come to realise no one can really ever do this in spirit over eternity to another, as eventually we will all find and recover ourselves) My answer is nothing. As a sentient, individuated aspect of What Is, I will be and have my personal sovereignty and agency of my own core being -- and I submit to Source and centre and none else

If, say, others are rat b*stards to you, if they are cruel or abuse your kindness or your trust, then you draw your boundaries and forgive when you are able...if there is no mutuality of change and growth in that particular situation -- or if it is not mutually adequate (say, I'll only beat you every other day -- how's that?), then you may move on without them or that resolution for now. That is the loving thing to do for YOU equally to THEM. And you take heart that you are doing all you can for this situation whilst balancing your personal needs within the all-encompassing thread of What Is.

There is simply no forcing reconciliation or healing in spirit simply because folks have the wacky idea here and now that power or force in the waking world amounts to jack poo. Or because they are lazy and they want your compliance now without consideration of your mutual right to truth in love. That is a very primitive and illusory perspective, and it falls away in the face of the mutual humanity and presence of fellow souls in spirit -- who are also embodied here on earth, many of them.

Things don't seem to come together all round otherwise, no matter which lifetime. Many, many times, I am reminded of MLK's saying "We don't get there, till we all get there." One of the wisest, deepest sayings and true on so many, many levels we are still unpacking. Regarding reconciliation, all parties have to "get there" in that they have all owned, addressed, redressed, and properly sought to reach out and make amends in authentic love. Not my way or highway (or sod ye one and all), but rather a mutuality of regard and consideration. Truth in love. Lovingkindness from equanimity.

We don't make conscious choices. A Spanish psychologist put forward after much study that the choices we make are made more by 'committee' than anything else. Logic, emotions, past experiences, body language even although we might not be conscious of it at the time, survival .... All play their parts in us coming to a choice. I think it was Nobel Prize-winning Penrose who said that it's easier to describe a black hole than it is for to describe how a human comes to a decision. The choices have been made before we become conscious of them a fraction of a second later. The consciousness is epiphenomenal and itself plays no part in the process.


So while you're submitting to Source and none else, aren't those that trespass against you doing the very same thing? If not, who decides what makes the difference and what are the reasons for that?


Thing is, which one is the rat b*stard? If they've betrayed your kindness or your trust what does that say about you? You've judged your actions as a kindness and you've judged them on moral criteria you yourself have set, and perhaps never once talked about the contract you're holding them to - because trust is a contract of a kind. It's all down to expectations set against moral values you have set/adopted.


I'm not going to worry too much about other people because I have no power over them, they have made their choices just the same as I have and they are exercising their Free Will the same as I am. And while it might really suck that's the way it is, but the suckiness reminds me that I'm both human and God in amnesia after all. What I have to Live with in the meantime is what's under my skin, and I dare say many who don't have equanimity and authentic Love have the same sentiment.


In Triplex Unity there is 'this', there is 'that' and there is 'both'. There is the spiritual, the 'mundane' and the place where they meet yet there is so much no-man's-land where there is no 'both'.


I often wonder if MLK was an incarnation of Jesus. Just a thought, but there are parallels.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I forget exactly what this was on but in general, I agree. It seems too many are looking to judge and dismiss others on the barest of pretences (high crimes and misdemeanours and the like aside, LOL). When for many things, we simply require a much deeper knowledge of the person, their history, their burdens and their character.

If a person routinely has casual sex without love and are mature adults in age, we may not trust them in that context. However, that doesn't mean that we have the right to pass judgment, simply because they may have had a poor cultural heritage and few to no good role models in their formative years. That is essentially what has happened to a large part of humanity in the modern era. So we may withdraw from interaction from a factual basis but that is not the same as pinning the weight or bulk of the burden for an entire culture on any one individual -- which is misguided. Even whilst it is on each of us to take ownership for our own lives, it requires a fairly extensive bit of maturity and awareness to realise the depth of the damage inflicted, the sheer unsustainability of rampant utilitarianism, and the pervasive, toxic guidance one has received since birth via the "mainstream cultural paradigm". So the reality is, most will put forth some resistance to accepting the full ramifications of this truth and this reality...simplistically, it's akin to that idea of having lived a lie -- you and many millions of others -- whilst the hieararchy and the corporate elite have cynically perpetrated it upon ye in full awareness. Understandably, it's a tough thing to swallow.

But the need to make amends in authentic Love, doesn't that means we still have baggage?


We are all victims of 'mainstream cultural paradigms' one way or the other, the paradigms simply wear different clothes. Sex without Love doesn't mean there was a "poor cultural heritage" involved and if you take that stance then you remain unknowing of the reasons as to why people may indulge in unloving sex and what they might find that helps fulfil there needs, often emotional as well as physical. Sometimes people need to indulge in some mutual animalistic, hot and sweaty sex to get their frustrations out of their systems - ain't that the truth? It's more enjoyable than shooting people or being a political correctness fascist.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hahaha...Jesus would say you folks have not yet learnt some of my most basic lessons, and it's largely because you're actively resisting them. As to the the rest, we are in transition for certain. But it is possible to make meaningful improvements without stagnation or descent into chaos. Again, it's all down to conscious choice and engagement, and to taking those choices over and over again.

We have to accept that the struggle is what is. It is our path. It's Jacob's ladder writ large and much of it is going to play out amongst one another, as well as within ourselves. The catholic church is a very easy symbol of this struggle of men to discipline and productively channel urges whilst sitting at the apex (or among the apex hiearchy) of society.

Men in particular are hugely vulnerable and challenged regarding desire and discipline, without the stalwart support of culture, one another, and women of character -- which in an ethically impoverished and underdeveloped culture means women of deep spiritual and ethical strength. Without these things, men fall vastly short of attaining the fullness of their humanity -- lovingkindness and equanimity for humanity at large and also for individuals. IMO women need a far greater sensitivity to men's weaknesses, but most simply are not aware. One of most women's great failings is that they know very little of the humanity of men and men on their part often hide their weaknesses so that they can forage for sex or power. This reflects a fear-based perspective on men's part, encouraging them to take and to prey on others. Yet if women are not fully equal and independent, many also operate from a fear-based or scarcity-based perspective, because that is what the world presents to them as women. Any fear-based perspective will feed the imbalance.

Conversely, seeking to level the playing ground will tend to remove the real fears of the weak and the oppressed, which allow them to live their lives without codependency and playing to men's addictions and weaknesses. Otherwise, women (at the bottom of the hierarchy) may nonetheless unwittingly undermine men's humanity even as women experience social injustice and personal exploitation, since addicts and predators cannot realise the fullness of their being and then what alternatives have ye as women? Men can use social injustice to feed their insatiable urges and addictions, including use and abuse of women, which undermines the humanity of women. In both cases, our own humanity is also undermined by our own hand. If too deeply bent, it may not be salvageable in this lifetime as one's capacity for humanity may be (deeply) stunted.

IMO, healing occurs only when everyone has begun to step away from the lion's share of this situation, necessary to right humanity at the deepest levels individually and collectively. There's a reason why sex has always been married to the heart centre in all mystical wisdom traditions. Because to separate these things means that we simply cannot attain the fullness of our humanity. Very much a part of all that is that holistic reality that you & I touched on earlier. We are not just what we eat but also the choices we take.

The only positive way out IMO is for women to become equally empowered, such that they are strong enough to stand on their own and have time and reason to reflect and take ownership of their lives. Without desperation or need, women can attend to themselves and let men get clean & master themselves, i.e., discipline and channel their urges since most men have done since time immemorial. Once clean, men can step up and come forward as people and not as predators. It's really tragic to think that balancing might come about through authoritarian constraints and oppressing of women, such that they and the culture (at least in theory) are literally forced to hold men accountable for who they are and what they do, even with little to no real say in many senses (as in many 3rd world countries). We see bits of this mentale all too frequently now across many Western societies, as once more oppression and hierarchy and brutal prejudice seek to offer a ready "solution" to the gritty, real, concrete process of simply taking ownership and exercising discipline and honour at the individual and societal levels.

Jesus was also known to take tantrums, so perhaps he'd take his whip out and give us a good beating. Even Jesus had his very human side and was put in his place by a woman, and one of ill-repute if the Bible is to be believed so I'm not quite sure where that puts Christ Consciousness.


Yes it is our Path and if what's been written in these forums time and again about Free Will, we've all - each and every individual - made the choice to experience what we have in the fashion we have. Either that or our Spirituality is born of randomness and chaos - and in part, surprisingly enough, it is.


To be honest I'm not sure how to answer this. It would be easy to say that the Universe is the way it is for its own reasons and that a detached perspective would be the more Spiritual but that's not where I would go with this. The question is, what is the question?



Over the centuries women have long understood the humanity of men, and if you also look closely enough men are not the only ones who have foraged for sex and/or power. Behind every great man there is a great woman and sometimes it's been the woman's quest for power and using sex as a means to obtain that power, while the man sits on the throne the woman can wield the true power in the bedroom that drives the man. I have known women who have foraged for sex and power and indulged them in both, and from that perspective gained an insight where the positions were reversed. I don't think there's an easy answer to this but this seems to be the way things play out, that sometimes women play the game for their own ends. Sometimes the cavemen behaviour is prevalent even in this day and age, and some women are willing to subscribe to it for their own ends.


Time and again the same old patterns are repeating and sometimes I ask myself if we have really come so far after all? In some areas we have made huge leaps and bounds, yet in other areas we're still back in the stone age - literally. Society today is very polarised not just by men but by men who are the fittest and strongest, and those that aren't so fit and strong are left behind. That happens in every walk of Life, from relationships to the business world - and I don't just mean physical fitness neither. People are having to sell themselves off into slavery in all but name because there's very little choice.


I don't see anything inherently 'wrong' with humanity as it is, because everything we can see is humanity as it is, in the wild - and yes, that includes Spirituality because Spirituality is a very human thing; Spirituality is not of Spirit because Spirit doesn't have beliefs. The heights to which humanity can rise need to come from the depths to which it can plunge, the propensity to become so much more than ourselves has to come from our feelings of belittlement, disempowerment and disenfranchisement. The best way to smell the roses is in the aftermath of a good immersion in Jack Schidt.



I don't have the answers 7L, I know what ticks me off and what I'd really like to rant at but at the same time there is only so much in my power to do. I can affect my own little corner of the Universe and as for the rest only accept that the rest are doing their own thing the same as I am. I know what I can take ownership of, other than that....

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yes indeed -- and so per usual I've now got several tangents plucked out of my strange mind for further our convo
Peace & blessings
7L

Ummmm. If that's the case then send your replies to the fallout bunker.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

If, say, others are rat b*stards to you, if they are cruel or abuse your kindness or your trust, then you draw your boundaries and forgive when you are able...if there is no mutuality of change and growth in that particular situation -- or if it is not mutually adequate (say, I'll only beat you every other day -- how's that?), then you may move on without them .... That is the loving thing to do for YOU equally to THEM. And you take heart that you are doing all you can for this situation whilst balancing your personal needs within the all-encompassing thread of What Is.

From https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/paul...andletdie.html

When you were young and your heart was an open book
You used to say live and let live
(you know you did, you know you did you know you did)
But if this ever changing world in which we're living
Makes you give in and cry

Say live and let die
Live and let die
Live and let die
Live and let die

What does it matter to ya
When you got a job to do
You gotta do it well
You gotta give the other fellow hell

When you were young and your heart was an open book
You used to say live and let live
(you know you did, you know you did you know you did)
But if this ever changing world in which we're living
Makes you give in and cry

Say live and let die
Live and let die
Live and let die
Live and let die

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7aGAIWe3uE

[Ziusudra]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I do

God made man, man made religion and religion made God.

Good one!!!

Here is my take in similar thinking:

God created Man in his image. Man created God in his image.

[Dargor]

The problem with the ''perfectionist'' god is a lack of self-reflection. He demands us to understand him and give him all the praise while ironically he doesn't seem to understand us...

Originally Posted by Ziusudra

Good one!!!

Here is my take in similar thinking:

God created Man in his image. Man created God in his image.

Thank you. It seems a shame that people are still projecting outwards instead of finding what's within. So many people worship Jesus but nobody listens.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

It's nice to have a better idea where folks are coming from.
And until we get there (or if we never do), it's still important to hold that space for others so they can have their say, regardless.

Plenty of 'space' being 'held for others' here, aye what??

Selfishness is complicated in the sense that it tends to be self-deceptive (hence hypocritical, etc.) and not 'fair' (i.e. 'just') in relation to others.

One of the things about the 'ideal' of 'holding space for others' is that people and groups tend to 'righteously' over-estimate and so over-claim relational space (position, status, etc.)

This is why the 'Jewish-Islamic' and other sectarian and nationalistic, not to mention 'husband-wife', broohahas continue to be unresolved and so re-enacted with souls simply continuing to reincarnate on alternating sides of the (disputed poistion!) 'fence' for an ongoing series of incaranations - that is as long as they continue to be myopic (projecting 'the problem' onto others) and so don't transcend their own self-justifying, selfishness in the course of their 'disputes'.

There are those whose selfishly self-righteous delusions become so overblown, as in the case of peeps who think they are 'Jesus', that they lose touch with the 'mutuality' of existence altogether and cannot simply be 'reasoned' with, for example. One psychiatrist who worked in a loony-bin I read about would 'treat' such 'insanity' by putting two or more peeps who thought they were Jesus (returned) in the same room and having them 'interact' for periods of time!

Alternatively, if he didn't have more than one 'in house', he would have aids bring him the one who thought he was Jesus and force him to his knees in front of him and then ask said 'Jesus': "If you are Jesus, how come it is that you are kneeling to me?"!

That sometimes worked (to 'stop' the 'delusion', for a time at least).

Ponder, ponder what will come of this 'space honoring' (just as long as a person doesn't 'criticize' or 'critically confront' others!) space-place. Lots of delusions, some apparently more 'sane' that others, running 'loose' inside their own 'bubbles', rolling 'em around and around here, methinks.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi 7L.

Stupid forum, spent ages replying and ended up with a blank post. Grrr.

I'm actually grateful because I've had people who have given me snippets of wisdom that have served me very well. I like the smallest of snippets because they're easy to carry and become like the seeds of a fractal that can be zoomed in or out of to infinity. One of those snippets was "They're only mad at you because they're missing something." No it's not always pretty but underwhelmed? If there is a Soul 'in there', how different is our perspective from that point of view? If they're 'missing something' and I react in kind, surely that means I'm missing something too and if so what? If something does repulse me, isn't that my perspective? Because Spirituality will tell me that there's far more going on behind the mask than I can know of, so is repulsion a sign of my ignorance or non-acceptance? Or a reminder that I'm human after all?

Hey there GS, how's stuff? :) I almost didn't see this...I had quite a bit of family stuff. We finally saw gram off to her resting place at nearly 104!

Down the rabbit hole and into the mind of 7L we go...

Well for myself, it is honestly a bit repulsive when others cannot relate to your full humanity but instead relate to you in a glazed, animalistic way...or with arrogance or an assumption of "superiority" because they view your kind of humanity as low and dirty...based on whatever bias.

That is the challenge, of course, to get beyond the instinctive repulsion and continue to relate to them just as if they had met you with full regard for your equal humanity. It is soul-bracing stuff when it needs to be done more or less daily, for certain, and it builds true character. Mine is rather steely in its mettal at this point

Good old humanity.

Society is a monolithic entropic system and it's coming apart at the seams. Ironically, often what's being done to try and save it and put it back together is becoming a part of what's tearing it apart - there is never negative entropy. Once upon a time people knew their place in society and made themselves comfortable, and now that's eroding slowly but surely. Lord of the Flies has come to town. Social justice had brought crime, so while women are becoming more equal (and admittedly there's still work to be done on that score) political correctness has become a fascism and crime is rising. Funding for support groups is falling and more and more support groups are struggling to cope with rising numbers and the shortage of funding.

While some social injustices are being addressed that weren't before the scales have been tipped in another direction. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the actual numbers are kept pretty much a secret by the government. What isn't public knowledge is the number of soldiers who are committing suicide because of PTSD and the effects of being forgotten about, or the number of children below the poverty line....

The question for me is what's happening, is this becoming more about survival than anything else and how will that affect so many things? Are we going to have loving consciousness when the majority are on the breadline? Entropy is not a good basis for Utopia. Crime is on the rise for various reasons, but it looks very much like young people are becoming more feral nowadays and even good manners is a thing of the past. I think we're going very much in the opposite direction of balance, society is becoming more polarised.

We are still a few stones' throws away from a PC fascism, luckily but it bears watching for certain...too often folks just don't like the pushback that we hear now from new voices which in all ages past were largely silenced, hahahaha... We are equally likely to be under the thumb of outright fascism, LOL...that, or religious "law" Take your pick of those beauties, eh?

Re: entropy and utopia, entropy is IMO much more aligned with a rigid totalitarianism...it is never fully achieveable, but if it were, it would mean total and absolute control, the authoritatian paradise. And no, I think we cannot have a loving conciousness en masse if most are on the breadline. Living in fear is necessary to successfully perpetrate hatemongering and a willing sacrifice of your democratic liberties. I think it is absolutely intentional, the fearmongering and the austerity measures...as these are simply the usual means of social control trotted out in some fashion whenever the hiearchy and the transnationals feel anxious.[

Not sure about transparency in all things though, but human nature yet finds a way to break through the tarmac and to search for the sun.

To be honest I find a huge conflict in this. If there are Karmic Obligations at play what then? And surely the need for forgiveness and repentance is very human, because if we were as Spiritual as we'd like to think we are there would be no need for forgiveness or reconciliation. Those things are born of judgement and perhaps even ignorance, aren't they? We might feel as though there's been some wrong-doing going on but Spiritually it makes no sense.

We don't make conscious choices. A Spanish psychologist put forward after much study that the choices we make are made more by 'committee' than anything else. Logic, emotions, past experiences, body language even although we might not be conscious of it at the time, survival .... All play their parts in us coming to a choice. I think it was Nobel Prize-winning Penrose who said that it's easier to describe a black hole than it is for to describe how a human comes to a decision. The choices have been made before we become conscious of them a fraction of a second later. The consciousness is epiphenomenal and itself plays no part in the process.

So while you're submitting to Source and none else, aren't those that trespass against you doing the very same thing? If not, who decides what makes the difference and what are the reasons for that?

Thing is, which one is the rat b*stard? If they've betrayed your kindness or your trust what does that say about you? You've judged your actions as a kindness and you've judged them on moral criteria you yourself have set, and perhaps never once talked about the contract you're holding them to - because trust is a contract of a kind. It's all down to expectations set against moral values you have set/adopted.

I'm not going to worry too much about other people because I have no power over them, they have made their choices just the same as I have and they are exercising their Free Will the same as I am. And while it might really suck that's the way it is, but the suckiness reminds me that I'm both human and God in amnesia after all. What I have to Live with in the meantime is what's under my skin, and I dare say many who don't have equanimity and authentic Love have the same sentiment.

In Triplex Unity there is 'this', there is 'that' and there is 'both'. There is the spiritual, the 'mundane' and the place where they meet yet there is so much no-man's-land where there is no 'both'.

You speak some truths throughout, for certain, LOL. I just highlighted one here, but there are many others.

I'm trying not to get too too much into the discussion of "contracts" because I don't apprehend that any agreement to cross paths (which certainly may occur pre-life IMO) would or does ever intentionally include, much less "justify", any misaligned actions (which is not part of the agreement IMO). Rather, as I see it, misaligned actions and harms put upon others are simply what often occur when we cross paths with others and we are not "there" yet. I.e., par for the course until we and humanity as a whole begin to awaken and take full ownership for our word and deed, and for our intent and thought as well, and generally move along a bit further. With "there" pointing to that place of being and doing from the heart centre, with "mind in heart" as the Desert Fathers put it. With lovingkindness from a place of equanimity.

And however we try to move up the scale and say spirit doesn't care etc., IMO that simply has no hard bearing on what we as individuated consciousness either do or do not do. Because what we each do is up to each of us. We have our own lessons to learn at this level of being and whilst incarnated. And it has to do with taking ownership of our uniqueness and our connection to others -- and with this ownership comes what we typically call contrition and repentance, and also what we typically call forgiveness and reconciliation. Though the specific words we use for these things don't really matter and you may prefer other terms for these heartfelt states and intentions and ways of being in alignment with centre and with What Is.

But taking ownership and leading from the awakened heart, with mind in service to heart...these do matter. These IMO are among the core reasons we come here as embodied individuated consciousness, existing in relationship to others and to all that is. Particularly, we come to rediscover who we are, and from there, to be and do lovingkindness from a place of equanimity -- in all our uniqueness of being. Which BTW includes modeling boundaries and sustainable, mutually respectful ways of being. Not taking abuse and not perpetrating it, either one.

I often wonder if MLK was an incarnation of Jesus. Just a thought, but there are parallels.

But the need to make amends in authentic Love, doesn't that means we still have baggage?

We are all victims of 'mainstream cultural paradigms' one way or the other, the paradigms simply wear different clothes. Sex without Love doesn't mean there was a "poor cultural heritage" involved and if you take that stance then you remain unknowing of the reasons as to why people may indulge in unloving sex and what they might find that helps fulfil there needs, often emotional as well as physical. Sometimes people need to indulge in some mutual animalistic, hot and sweaty sex to get their frustrations out of their systems - ain't that the truth? It's more enjoyable than shooting people or being a political correctness fascist.

Well, GS, I'm not here to judge any one person, LOL...that's neither my place nor my mindset. My statements are not about any one person. They can speak for themselves and they can take ownership for themselves too if they're "real" grownups, hahaha ;).

Rather, when you get sudden cultural changes heretofore unknown in our recorded history for the last several thousand years, and then suddenly there is a massive wave of sexual violence, coercion, and remorseless exploitation of others for sexual gratification...then you have two things going on simultaneously at the macro level: 1) a base, amoral culture that preys on men's weaknesses and in turn encourages their predation of vulnerable others and 2) a primitive state of humanity, universally, where humanity at large is at the toddler phase spiritually and emotionally and has little to no impulse control of wants & urges when the heavy parental hand of traditional social authority is removed. The existence of #2 then makes #1 possible on such a massive, universal scale.

Persons' individual reasons for play-acting "as if" they were mindless beasts when they are in fact always sentient, self aware human beings is more of that infantile, magical thinking that we can reliably associate with #2 (primitive, infantile stage of humanity).

I.e., "let's pretend" we are not self-aware and thus have no capacity for reflection, for choice. "Let's pretend" we are animals and have no responsibilities and no agency, etc., and we are not responsible for what we do and say...so let's go rape, murder, and pillage, even though we know it's lethal and it's misaligned to do so. Or "let's pretend" we are violent mindless animals and have no conscience, etc, even though we actually know it's wrong to beat and torture Jack and Jill and take their toys just coz we can and just because sadism and indulgence feel good.

There's a far, far deeper set of denial, emotional lack, and various deprivations going on there IMO than the already grave violation of using another "as if" they were just a mindless receptacle for one's violence or frustrations, for one's fantasies, or for one's spooge.

Jesus was also known to take tantrums, so perhaps he'd take his whip out and give us a good beating. Even Jesus had his very human side and was put in his place by a woman, and one of ill-repute if the Bible is to be believed so I'm not quite sure where that puts Christ Consciousness.

Yes it is our Path and if what's been written in these forums time and again about Free Will, we've all - each and every individual - made the choice to experience what we have in the fashion we have. Either that or our Spirituality is born of randomness and chaos - and in part, surprisingly enough, it is.

To be honest I'm not sure how to answer this. It would be easy to say that the Universe is the way it is for its own reasons and that a detached perspective would be the more Spiritual but that's not where I would go with this. The question is, what is the question?

Over the centuries women have long understood the humanity of men, and if you also look closely enough men are not the only ones who have foraged for sex and/or power. Behind every great man there is a great woman and sometimes it's been the woman's quest for power and using sex as a means to obtain that power, while the man sits on the throne the woman can wield the true power in the bedroom that drives the man. I have known women who have foraged for sex and power and indulged them in both, and from that perspective gained an insight where the positions were reversed. I don't think there's an easy answer to this but this seems to be the way things play out, that sometimes women play the game for their own ends. Sometimes the cavemen behaviour is prevalent even in this day and age, and some women are willing to subscribe to it for their own ends.

Time and again the same old patterns are repeating and sometimes I ask myself if we have really come so far after all? In some areas we have made huge leaps and bounds, yet in other areas we're still back in the stone age - literally. Society today is very polarised not just by men but by men who are the fittest and strongest, and those that aren't so fit and strong are left behind. That happens in every walk of Life, from relationships to the business world - and I don't just mean physical fitness neither. People are having to sell themselves off into slavery in all but name because there's very little choice.

I don't see anything inherently 'wrong' with humanity as it is, because everything we can see is humanity as it is, in the wild - and yes, that includes Spirituality because Spirituality is a very human thing; Spirituality is not of Spirit because Spirit doesn't have beliefs. The heights to which humanity can rise need to come from the depths to which it can plunge, the propensity to become so much more than ourselves has to come from our feelings of belittlement, disempowerment and disenfranchisement. The best way to smell the roses is in the aftermath of a good immersion in Jack Schidt.

I don't have the answers 7L, I know what ticks me off and what I'd really like to rant at but at the same time there is only so much in my power to do. I can affect my own little corner of the Universe and as for the rest only accept that the rest are doing their own thing the same as I am. I know what I can take ownership of, other than that....

I appreciate your thoughts GS and I appreciate your taking time to share. I do agree that humanity need to take ownership at all levels, for certain. And I do understand that it's a vexing and difficult topic for many men, because quite a large portion of men in the last half century have -- whilst absolutely under guidance of the "poor cultural heritage" I mentioned -- operated without honour toward women at one or more times in their lives... often having egregiously, callously and even viciously used and exploited women. Often having perpetrating great physical and emotional harms upon women, via the various use of drink/drugs, deception, coercion, and/or outright force...used variously to obtain sex across a spectrum of shady, dishonourable, and dehumanising means whilst crassly violating another sentient being.

This private knowledge is corrosive and indissoluable by any other means other than direct ownership and the total spiritual and emotional metamorphosis of the soul. For certain, a lot of the twelve-step methods and processes will apply here, within the privacy of each man's heart.

And to the extent that any man has the need to undergo this soul-searching, ownership, and transformation in regard to how he orients his being toward the rest of What Is, my thought to you is that each and every man needs to now support his fellow man in this universal and critical undertaking, each in his own way and time. I say pass the word and let the light of awareness and affirmation dawn: say to one another, let's forget the bro code and the overwrought justifications that we hear and see ad nauseam. Instead, you can simply and clearly acknowledge the near-univeral need for the undertaking of ownership amongst your fellow man, and lend a voice, an ear, and a shoulder if need be. The need for affirmation and support in the truth of what is (these things happened, I did them, etc...and I need to own the reality so that I can choose differently in future, starting today). Men need the strength in love from other men, particularly from solid father figures and mentors so often lacking in their lives. They need love and affirmation from other men and from family and friends, both, so that they can develop their humanity and actually become capable of authentic, non-sexual, non-demanding love of others as full human beings, and that especially includes women.

Perhaps, with more open affirmation of men and ownership of men's behaviour, we can begin having more honest discussions about consideration from women in the face of men's near disability in the area of sexual discipline and honour in the modern world, and how women are or are not contributing to the spiritual frailty of so many men in the modern era.

Ummmm. If that's the case then send your replies to the fallout bunker.

Hahaha...alrighty then, they are on their way, via the usual encryption channels and all that.

Peace & blessings GS
7L

[Astrogirl1966]

God does not want us too be perfict,God wants us too do the Best,that we can do and he will take care of everything else.