the teachings of the Divine Master

Originally Posted by shakshi

… I think out of etiquette, perhaps you might consider qualifying your statements with "I think that/I opine that or it is my belief that" etc …

You are entitled to think whatever you may choose to.
My reality isn't necessarily what you may think it is.

Originally Posted by shakshi

… as I've entitled this thread "the teachings of the Divine Master", so if one feels the need to counter those teachings, I strongly suggest they start their own forum entitled "refutations to the teachings of the Divine Master" or something similar. …

If you intended to present "the teachings of the Divine Master" as an irrefutable dogma, say so and there will be no comments to your posts.

Originally Posted by shakshi

… Whatever is achieved by meditation in Satya-yuga, by the performance of yajïa in Tretä-yuga, or by the worship of Krishna's lotus feet in Dväpara-yuga, is easily obtained in the age of Kali simply by chanting and glorifying Lord Keshava.(padma purana) …

Is it something you believe, or is it something you actually realized? Have you actually attained Self-Realization following the above?

Originally Posted by shakshi

Joshua_G: "Have you attained Self-Realization?"
Shakshi: I am clear on the three fundamental ontologies (what is the self/who is God/what is the world I perceive). Whilst that in and of itself isn't sufficient necessarily to claim to be self-realised, it is a major step towards such.

The bottom line is that you admit that you haven't attained Self-Realization. Which means that all your quotes are things you believe in, but they aren't verified by your actual reality. The "teachings of the Divine Master", right now, for you, is something you believe in, not something that gave you the promised results -- unless the promised results are something other than Self-Realization.

Originally Posted by shakshi

… I've taken your words at face value …

No, you distorted my words. You have put in my mouth something I didn't say.

Originally Posted by shakshi

… and if your opinions are from realisation, then the litmus test is: do such opinions align with the Divine Master?

When one believes there is only one Divine Master, whose words alone are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then indeed the words of that Divine Master are a yard-stick by which to measure all other words.

The point is that the Supreme Reality is beyond the mind, it transcends all words.

Originally Posted by shakshi

… (or another such bona-fide Guru) …

Who are such other bona-fide Gurus?

Originally Posted by shakshi

… and do they align with the Veda.

The essence of the Vedas cannot be understood by the mind, it can only be realized by a direct, experiential realization.

Originally Posted by shakshi

… If your comments do actually come from realisation, then such realisation's validity must be scrutinized …

Do you mean scrutinized by the mind?
The Ultimate Reality cannot be understood by the mind, it can only be realized by a direct, experiential realization.

Originally Posted by shakshi

shakshi: "… My claim is that the Divine Master is such a person, I've met him, and he displays all the outward visible signs of enlightenment that are mentioned in the Veda to assist a conditioned soul in determining who is and who isn't actually enlightened." Joshua_G: "An enlightened being cannot be recognized, neither by any external signs, nor by others who aren't enlightened themselves."
shakshi: The shastra disagrees with you:
Oh Uddhava! Know the äcärya to be as good as Myself. He is My very svarüpa (My expansion). At no time should one, out of envy, neglect or disrespect the Guru as an ordinary mortal, nor should he be considered to have any faults, because the Guru is the sum total of all the demigods.
(Bhagavata Purana)

Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supersoul and friend of all living beings, one who is engaged in His devotional service has not the least fear or disturbance in material existence. One who knows this secret is actually enlightened. Such a bonafide spiritual master is qualitatively one with Krishna and is His direct representative in the material world.
(Bhagavata Purana)

A person who knows (1) the truth about knowledge (spiritual reality) and ignorance (mäyä); (2) the auspicious, ultimate spiritual goal (sädhya) and the inauspicious, conditioned material existence of the living entities; and (3) the process of creation and the destruction, only such a personality can be addressed as ‘bhagavän‘.
(Vishna Purana)

In the above quotes you gave, no external signs for an enlightened one are given.
You may do yourself a service should you read more carefully the words on which you base your opinions and beliefs.

Originally Posted by shakshi

The point here is that I admit it is practically impossible for a conditioned jiva to ascertain who is actually free …

Which is what I said and which contradicts your earlier claims.

Originally Posted by shakshi

… however, there are certain initial signs of one who is no longer, or not ever, bound by the stringent laws of this material world. …

What are those signs?

Originally Posted by shakshi

… It definitely is a category that's hard to define, although, it is certainly a case of you'll know a liberated soul when you see one.

Here you contradicts yourself once again.
How will you know a liberated soul when you see one? Or are you confusing believing with knowing?

----

Now, since obviously your views/beliefs are world apart from mine, and since obviously neither one of us is going to change the other's views/beliefs/realizations, continuing the debate between us is futile. It will lead nowhere. Therefore I wish you good luck in your path but I will not comment anymore to whatever you may write.

As for the path of bhakti (devotion).

In the words of Sri Sankaracarya, in his book Vivekacudamani (The Crest-Jewel of Discrimination), translated by Swami Turiyananda:

(9) "Through devotion to right discrimination he will climb to the height of union with Brahman. By the power of Atman, let him rescue his own soul which lies drowned in the vast waters of worldliness."

(31) "Among all means of liberation, devotion is supreme. To seek earnestly to know one's real nature -- this is said to be devotion."

(56) "Neither by the practice of Yoga or of Sankhya philosophy, nor by good works, nor by learning, does liberation come; but only through the realization that Atman and Brahman are one -- in no other way."

(59) "Study of the scriptures is fruitless as long as Brahman has not been experienced. And when Brahman has been experienced, it is useless to read the scriptures."

(476) "Masters may direct from the shore, but disciple must cross the ocean by his own knowledge. The gurus only show from a distance. Teachers and scriptures awaken the disciple from a distance, but the learned should know the Atman by his own self through the grace of the Lord."

OM,
Namaste Shaksi

Yes, finding a "true guru" a Satguru or Sadguru whichever spelling you choose is extremely difficult----as it has always been. Casting away all misconceptions, barriers, ideologies, where should I begin? Is there a "living"
Satguru of this lineage/tradition of bhakti yoga?

Shanti,
Present

namo namaH
@ Joshua_G

Let us discuss the points made by Joshua_G re the teachings of the Divine Master, based on the divine illumination that the teachings of the Divine Master bring to the conditioned soul.

The path of yoga follows precisely the model for a defined path/school/doctrine that the Veda espouses containing the elements that will gradually extricate the delusioned jiva from delusion and lead them to the deathless world of sadchidananada. Whilst Joshua_G seems preoccupied with attempting to undermine that which is un-underminable, we can consider the Divine Master's replies to such a line of thought:
The jiva has been perplexed since time immemorial, mistakingly considering the flesh and anything associated with it (family/nation/society etc) to have any real worth, though in fact they have no intrinsic value. When the conditioned jiva, by the causeless mercy of Bhagavan begins to question their existence, and begins to contemplate their mortality deeply, at that point, the Guru appears. Under the guidance of a fully self-realised soul, one begins the process of dissolving the mind, the intelligence, and finally the ego, such that the jiva arrives at the purified-self.
Joshua_G's line of thought is punctuated by ego. The Divine Master declares that amongst the last snares of the jiva's emancipation is the ego, which tends to cleave to delusion, having experienced it for innumerable births, and basically resigning itself to a perverse attraction to samskara, or repeated birth and death. Joshua_G actually is launching his reasoning from the region of ego, having realised that in fact the Divine Master is infinitely superior to him and is able to actually effect emancipation in other jivas, which Joshua_G cannot do (and to be fair, neither can I). Joshua_G's posts are simply a knee-jerk reaction to having encountered, at least via a third-party, the Absolute Truth as revealed by the Divine Master and the ramifications that has on his owned skewed ideology. It seems, unbeknown to him, that it is not relevant harping on whether I am self-realised or not, which has never been the point of this discussion or thread, rather, it is to present the school of bhakti yoga and to declare that by following the abhidheya (means for attaining the goal) one will answer for themselves the three fundamental ontologies: what is the self, who is God, and what is the world. Depsite Joshua_G's posts reeking with ad hominem undertones, they do not in any way undermine the transcendental path of bhakti, which remains the sublime authentic means to God realization in the kaliyuga.
Arguing within the realm of delusion punctuated by ego was never the Divine Master's mood, nor is it mine. If one wants to attempt to do that, without actually walking the path themselves, then it can be concluded that such a person is deeply entrenched in delusion, and nothing more should be delineated to them.
om shanti
Shakshi

And, for the record, this thread is entitled "the teachings of the Divine Master", not the version of Bhakti as enunciated by Shankara, which is deemed by the bhakti school to be fatally flawed, and was unceremoniously dumped as a valid idealogy by Ramanuja sometime in the 11th century. The poster of the words of Shankara is obviously an advaitin, and is threatened by the Absolute Truth of the bhaktimarg, and feels a compelling need to attempt to override the guruvarga of the Divine Master from the relatively weak position of delusory realisation that is neither affirmed by the Veda, nor endorsed by the guruvarga. The tack of the poster is blatently obvious, except perhaps to him, which again highlights the wonderful paradox of the mind.
om shanti
Shakshi

Shaksi,

Why not just forget your conflicting viewpoints with Joshua G and let it go.
Do you feel the need to have the last word? Where is the peace and harmony?

Present

[Xan]

Once again I hear people wasting their energy and love on arguments about who has the 'right' path and how others are wrong. How sad.


Xan

The teachings of the Divine Master are the topmost dharma so if somebody attempts to undermine them then it is my duty to the Divine Master to realign untruth, to the truth. People make think that "sad", and they may consider that "conflict" but it is in actual fact an act of love. The self if allowed to remain in the inextricable clutches of delusion, suffers perpetual birth and death, hence when one is blessed by having understood the truth, or at least met someone who has, then they have a moral responsibility to uplift humanity to the infinite joy and love that is their rightful claim. The teachings of Shankara are an utter distortion of the Veda, and I would be doing a disservice to humanity if I allowed people to try to pass off his doctrine as truth without at least pointing out that in fact the dvaita school is the actual final summation of Vedanta. I think it pertinent to point out that in Indian Metaphysics, this kind of debate goes on all the time, for all millenia, and is a useful way that monks ascertained truth without a second. So, let me stress to anyone who may have been following my conversations with others in this thread, please, do not consider such conversations to be grounded in ego, at least from my part, they are grounded in love, for I know that the teachings of the Divine Master is the universal solution whereby all men can be happy, and the world can live in perfect harmony. I trust those who made arbitrary comments which are actually efforts to undermine a perfect ideology, that they overlook the imperfections of the mouthpiece of the Divine Master, and embrace the Divine Master exclusively. I am certain they will very soon become atmarama, fully satiated in love of the self, and of the Divine.
on shanti
Shakshi

I've entitled this thread the "teachings of the Divine Master" yet I have been bombarded from all angles, covertly and overtly by ego-mind, who feels threatened because the teachings are not the teachings the ego-mind follows, or the teachings are foreign to the ego-mind, or the teachings were not thought of by the ego-mind, etc. This is all symptomatic of the efforts of the ego-mind to remain in a perceived comfort-zone of samskara, afterall, the ego-mind has performed the same delusion for millions of lives, why change now? And because I've entitled this thread "the teachings of the Divine Master", I expect people who read this thread to be clear that it is the teachings of the Divine Master that I've realised to be the topmost conclusion of Vedanta as I am convinced that anyone, of any creed/dogma/ideology or "ism" should believe heart mind and soul, that the ideology they've decided upon cannot be undermined in anyway. Why believe anything at all unless one is emphatically convinced it is the truth? I think Kierkegaard alluded to this in his existential manifesto, wherein a concrete human reality albeit one grounded in belief is the single most fundamental experience of humanity as opposed to a rational abstract approach that is purely empirical. Of course, there is a limitation to this reasoning, and it would be disadvantageous to close one's mind entirely to the possibility that one may in fact have believed a not-truth mistaking it for the truth. However, as the Divine Master has refuted all other conceptions purporting to proclaim the truth to me, there is no longer any need for me to examine the doctrines and paths of others, suffice to say that I wish them well, and I always apply the Christ's rationale in these matters, "a tree is judged by the fruit it bears".
Peace and love to all,
Shakshi

pranam
I encourage everyone to read Ramanuja's seven-fold refutation of Shankara's advaitavedanta (it's probably on Wiki) that points out the logical inconsistencies with Shankara's dissertation. This refutation is dated from the 11th century, and it undermines every axiom of Shankara thus collapsing his entire doctrine into dualism, which then forms the basis of Ramanuja's cornerstone ideology, the vashistadvaita, or qualified non-dualism. This then similarly formed the bedrock of a subsequent dismantling of Shankara, with Nimbarka's dvaitaadvaita, or dual-nondual paradox, which led to the pure dvaita or dual school of Madhavacaraya, and finally all doctrines were aligned with Sri Chaitanya's acintyabhedaabhedatattva, or the doctrine of simultaneous oneness and difference. This then completes the vedanta, or the end of knowledge. When one understands this, they are ready to enter deeper into the mystery of God. If they do not understand this, the ego-mind will have no other recourse but at all costs attempt to undermine the truth. Of course, the great paradox of the ego-mind is that it will ensure that the virtually inextricable matrix of karma fuelled by desire catalysed by lust/anger/greed is a safe and secure bastion. Of course, death undermines that postiion!
om shanti
Shakshi