Identity and the phantom self

Originally Posted by Moondance

Hi Greenslade

I see that you have run with the notion of the ‘phantom self’ being equivalent to the Jungian ego.

I read Jung (just worked it out) about 40 years ago. I was into his writings at that time. In recent years I’ve come across him in relation to Advaita of which he was quite sympathetic (I used to have a book on the teachings of Ramana Maharshi in which he wrote a very favourable introduction.) So I’m not dismissive of his ideas. I certainly accept the constructive nature of ego - but what I’m primarily talking about here is what we could call an ‘ego aberration’.

This ego aberration is derived solely from unnecessary, repetitive, self-reflective (often negative) thinking. To the extent that a body-mind is free of unnecessary self-referential narratives so it will be free of psychological suffering. This ego aberration/remembered self is a delusion in the sense that right now on close inspection it can be clearly seen to have no existence.

Yet I do accept the constructive and practical role of an ego framework - I acknowledge that the body-mind is adapted to have a sense of individuation and with that I include a sense of self. But the important thing to recognise here (in terms of the spiritual perspective) is that this sense of self which co-arises with the organism is empty of inherent existence. It doesn’t exist ‘on its own side’ as the Buddhists say (the Buddhist teachings on emptiness point this out convincingly.) It has no inherent existence or self-origination and therefore no ultimate reality - it is an activity, expression, patterning (for want of a description) of wholeness.

So yes, the (constructive) ego exists relatively/conventionally. It’s an empty ego - a conventional ego.

So if you like, we have two layers here. Firstly the self-reflective happened/psychological self or ‘ego aberration’. This is solely upheld in the mind and can be dissolved or seen through.

Adjacent to that is the body-mind-individuated-matrix with its sense of self or conventional (healthy) ego structure. This has a relative existence. It can be seen for what it is.

Moondance,

People can theorize till the cows come home,what good is theory without direct experiencing?

Is inertia a goal?

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Elabr8Aspie

Moondance,

People can theorize till the cows come home,what good is theory without direct experiencing?

Is inertia a goal?

Hello Elabr8Aspie

Yes, I totally agree. Conversations like these can only act as a way of investigating inconsistent views, misinformation and confused beliefs which might hamper the arising of insight. Ramana Maharshi likened it to using a thorn to remove another thorn. When the thorn is removed, both can be discarded.

Originally Posted by Moondance

Hello Elabr8Aspie

Yes, I totally agree. Conversations like these can only act as a way of investigating inconsistent views, misinformation and confused beliefs which might hamper the arising of insight. Ramana Maharshi likened it to using a thorn to remove another thorn. When the thorn is removed, both can be discarded.

Yeah,though you tend to get to a point and realize,they are just other peoples views,beliefs and stories.

Like a dog chasing it's tale and then with realization,it stops.

Originally Posted by ketzer

Exactly! there was a time I looked back at my phantom selves with a sense of shame at how dumb I was. Then I realized, though I may still be dumb, I was dumber then, and that's what progress looks like.

P.S. I do know of at least one thread on beauty in darkness, its a bit old though.
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...+darkne ss%22

Without having been dumb you wouldn't know you'd made progress, so cut yourself some slack.

Originally Posted by Moondance

Hi Greenslade

I see that you have run with the notion of the ‘phantom self’ being equivalent to the Jungian ego.

I read Jung (just worked it out) about 40 years ago. I was into his writings at that time. In recent years I’ve come across him in relation to Advaita of which he was quite sympathetic (I used to have a book on the teachings of Ramana Maharshi in which he wrote a very favourable introduction.) So I’m not dismissive of his ideas. I certainly accept the constructive nature of ego - but what I’m primarily talking about here is what we could call an ‘ego aberration’.

This ego aberration is derived solely from unnecessary, repetitive, self-reflective (often negative) thinking. To the extent that a body-mind is free of unnecessary self-referential narratives so it will be free of psychological suffering. This ego aberration/remembered self is a delusion in the sense that right now on close inspection it can be clearly seen to have no existence.

Yet I do accept the constructive and practical role of an ego framework - I acknowledge that the body-mind is adapted to have a sense of individuation and with that I include a sense of self. But the important thing to recognise here (in terms of the spiritual perspective) is that this sense of self which co-arises with the organism is empty of inherent existence. It doesn’t exist ‘on its own side’ as the Buddhists say (the Buddhist teachings on emptiness point this out convincingly.) It has no inherent existence or self-origination and therefore no ultimate reality - it is an activity, expression, patterning (for want of a description) of wholeness.

So yes, the (constructive) ego exists relatively/conventionally. It’s an empty ego - a conventional ego.

So if you like, we have two layers here. Firstly the self-reflective happened/psychological self or ‘ego aberration’. This is solely upheld in the mind and can be dissolved or seen through.

Adjacent to that is the body-mind-individuated-matrix with its sense of self or conventional (healthy) ego structure. This has a relative existence. It can be seen for what it is.

Hi there Moondance


What's not very well know, especially in Spiritual circles, is that Jung was well versed in Eastern religions and had an education that many on this forum would envy. His model of the ego is based, I think, on the Ahamcara/Ahancara - which strangely enough is another understanding that's ignored in the discussion of the ego. It's there understandings that make sense of Spirituality, not to 'importing of definitions only to redefine them for the sake of personal agenda. This only causes confusion.



The ego contains - as well as so many other things - the 'results' of the sum total of the perceptual reality that has created your consciousness, up to now. As fir its existence or not depends on agenda, it's the framework of one's Spirituality. Whether it is an aberration or not is relative to your own perspective, but whatever you cal it, it's another redefinition that seems to come from the same brain patterns.



As Bashar said, "If you can perceive it, it exists. How can you perceive something that does not exist?"

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there Moondance


What's not very well know, especially in Spiritual circles, is that Jung was well versed in Eastern religions and had an education that many on this forum would envy. His model of the ego is based, I think, on the Ahamcara/Ahancara - which strangely enough is another understanding that's ignored in the discussion of the ego. It's there understandings that make sense of Spirituality, not to 'importing of definitions only to redefine them for the sake of personal agenda. This only causes confusion.



The ego contains - as well as so many other things - the 'results' of the sum total of the perceptual reality that has created your consciousness, up to now. As fir its existence or not depends on agenda, it's the framework of one's Spirituality. Whether it is an aberration or not is relative to your own perspective, but whatever you cal it, it's another redefinition that seems to come from the same brain patterns.



As Bashar said, "If you can perceive it, it exists. How can you perceive something that does not exist?"

Yes. The ego (stripped of the narrative/happened self) is not a problem, it’s mistaking the ego for a fixed, separate self-entity that’s the problem.

Originally Posted by ant

Hi Greenslade,

Yes,what you put out,in turn comes back to you.

Re:Addictions,i'm very much on top of things as far as addictions goes and not only understand them fully,but can master any addiction that tries to take hold.

I am very much the master of my own ship.

My initial addictions were heroin,methadone and benzos,for some 18yrs,until i made my mind up to jump off 40mg's of methadone on my 35th birthday.

101% resolute in mind,i suffered very little withdrawals.

Moved interstate and stayed clean for a few years,then got into a cycle of relapsing ie:heroin for a month,back onto methadone for a month or two,then jump off and stay clean for a month or two.

I did this for 7yrs and in hindsight self medicating.

Self medicating cause i can't tolerate this ego macho angst driven system.

Hence why i sold up and relocated to the country 19mnths ago all in toll.

Anyhow,all through this,i still functioned and worked and invested.

Clean 5yrs from heroin and methadone.


There after booze,just numbing myself when emotions arose.

And smoking i realised sometime ago where it originated from and why etc.

And also the flow on affect to other addictions.

I've quit smoking and drinking and this time for good.

Full circle.


Emotion wise,i've been bringing them to the surface,and processing for the last 6mnths.

Almost there,i gain more strength with each layer processed.


Re:Fasting,i've been doing this for a few years,as well as adhering to a simple keto diet,hence putting my body into ketosis.

Yeah,so all good,i know very well how much i can handle and how much i can push myself.

I love extending myself,denying myself and pushing myself through the barriers,even when one is extremely tired.


Anyhow,i hope you have managed to bring up all your emotions and pain from past trauma,processed,transmuted and transcended.

And or on the path to recovery and healing.

Take care.

Hey there Ant

I have to admire the people who have been through the mill and come out the other side, people like yourself. Often when you've been through it yourself you feel a kind of camaraderie with others that have done the same. I think it takes a certain kind of individual to come out the other side and if we can do that and at least accept ourselves warts-and-all we can do the same for others.

I've gone in the opposite direction and settled for the gentle-with-myself way of Life because it suits my laid-back style better, "Give me a tall ship and a star to steer her by" kind of thing. After years of being at odds with myself and the Universe around me it's time for a little harmony for a change.

I'm still processing my past but from a very different perspective. My perceptions are mine and they aren't dictated by what happens to me, they are dictated by how I chose to respond and that changes everything. They were what I needed at the time and while they're not baggage I keep them anyway, sometimes it feels good to feel alive. It's like having them on the mantelpiece as mementos and memoires of the Journey travelled, so in a way I have transcended them but remember that they were a large part of my Life anyway.


Namaste.
So keep on keeping on Dude.

Originally Posted by Moondance

Yes. The ego (stripped of the narrative/happened self) is not a problem, it’s mistaking the ego for a fixed, separate self-entity that’s the problem.

I guess that depends on your perspective. From a Gestalt Reality perspective the sum of the parts isn't just greater than the whole but a 'new' being, and the ego is as much a part of that Gestalt Reality as anything else. When does denial and/or a cognitive disorder become Spirituality? The irony is that it's the ego as a self-entity that wears the label, chooses the definition and rejects what is not compatible with the thought processes.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey there Ant

I have to admire the people who have been through the mill and come out the other side, people like yourself. Often when you've been through it yourself you feel a kind of camaraderie with others that have done the same. I think it takes a certain kind of individual to come out the other side and if we can do that and at least accept ourselves warts-and-all we can do the same for others.

I've gone in the opposite direction and settled for the gentle-with-myself way of Life because it suits my laid-back style better, "Give me a tall ship and a star to steer her by" kind of thing. After years of being at odds with myself and the Universe around me it's time for a little harmony for a change.

I'm still processing my past but from a very different perspective. My perceptions are mine and they aren't dictated by what happens to me, they are dictated by how I chose to respond and that changes everything. They were what I needed at the time and while they're not baggage I keep them anyway, sometimes it feels good to feel alive. It's like having them on the mantelpiece as mementos and memoires of the Journey travelled, so in a way I have transcended them but remember that they were a large part of my Life anyway.


Namaste.
So keep on keeping on Dude.

Hi Greenslade,

Regards feeling a kind of camaraderie with others,yes,and that's what it's all about isn't it,
being run through the mill and coming out the other side,so you can relate and commiserate to others going down the same road.

Regards opposite direction,i get that,as i opted out and relocated to the country some 16mnths ago.
And the first time home,feels like home,and or a place where i'm free to be me.

I think we all deserve some peace and harmony for a change as you put it,to expedite the healing process.

As for processing the past from a very different perspective etc etc,i get it.
Having moved past that reactive part of myself.

Slow and steady wins the race,: )

Take care.


“The endurance of darkness is the preparation for great light.”~John of the cross.

Originally Posted by ant

Hi Greenslade,

Regards feeling a kind of camaraderie with others,yes,and that's what it's all about isn't it,
being run through the mill and coming out the other side,so you can relate and commiserate to others going down the same road.

Regards opposite direction,i get that,as i opted out and relocated to the country some 16mnths ago.
And the first time home,feels like home,and or a place where i'm free to be me.

I think we all deserve some peace and harmony for a change as you put it,to expedite the healing process.

As for processing the past from a very different perspective etc etc,i get it.
Having moved past that reactive part of myself.

Slow and steady wins the race,: )

Take care.


“The endurance of darkness is the preparation for great light.”~John of the cross.

Hey Ant


True empathy can only come from someone who has been through something similar, and often people have an instinctual knowing that the other person has been through it. Sometimes there's no need for words. And perhaps the greatest empathy we can have is for ourselves as we counter the harshest of judges we have - ourselves. Leaving it all behind and giving ourselves half a chance is often the best gift we can give ourselves, but I also think that not hating yourself takes a certain kind of person.


It's not a race though, because wherever you are there you are but just make sure you're not trying to get past yourself. Being free inside and out is a very Spiritual place to be.