Understanding the Lords Prayer

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

The bit that is missing here is the idea that God via Jesus creates the light in a person in the first place, in your realization which is only light there is no mention of God or Jesus as necessary, only 'light'. Perhaps this light then is empty, perhaps this is why we don't see eye to eye. Light via Jesus quite simply brings fullness as it brings more than just light and nothingness and 'emptiness with potential'.

Nor do you have to "move beyond form" to realize emptiness of self, just beyond all ego as you wrote above.

Nowhere will you see Jesus saying him or the Father creates the light. You are that, you just haven't realized it. What is beyond ego and where do you place the realization of void and form with form being the light/energy that is all things?

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Emphatically not. Everyone who seeks the kingdom of heaven within might find the kingdom of heaven, but not by becoming male within. This is nonsensical.

Traditions that refer to male and female are clear on this, for example from Yogapedia:

"According to Shaivism, one of the major branches of yogic philosophy, there is a divine masculine energy which takes the form of the Hindu god, Shiva, and a divine feminine energy which takes the form of the goddess, Shakti. Both Shiva and Shakti are alive in both men and women. It’s said that our feminine side resides on our left side while the masculine resides on our right side. However, we need to remember that we carry within us both aspects of the Divine."

Yes, when males truly realize the female and females truly realize the male/female as being one and the same it is the union of Shakti and Shiva, Yab Yum in Buddhism, the bridal chamber in Christianity.

Yab-yum is generally understood to represent the primordial (or mystical) union of wisdom and compassion.[2] In Buddhism the masculine form is active, representing the compassion and skillful means (upaya[3]) that have to be developed in order to reach enlightenment. The feminine form is passive and represents wisdom (prajna), which is also necessary to enlightenment. United, the figures symbolize the union necessary to overcome the veils of Maya, the false duality of object and subject.

Also, have you noticed that Buddha's have male and female aspects? That is why.

"Avalokiteśvara (/ˌʌvloʊkɪˈteɪʃvərə, ˌʌvə-/ UV-loh-kih-TAY-shvər-ə, UV-ə-;[1] Sanskrit: अवलोकितेश्वर) is a bodhisattva who embodies the compassion of all Buddhas. This bodhisattva is variably depicted, described and is portrayed in different cultures as either female or male."

The light just like in all the traditions is the union of the male and female, yin/yang, Shakti and Shiva, void/form.

I agree basically that male/female=yang/yin=shakti/shiva but I don't agree that the union of any of these = the light.

With regard to Buddhism and emptiness.

Do you have any examples where Buddhist emptiness resembles being in Union with a loving God?

Union with a loving God, couldn't one say a Buddha is a loving God?

"Yidam is a type of deity associated with tantric or Vajrayana Buddhism said to be manifestations of Buddhahood or enlightened mind. During personal meditation (sādhana) practice, the yogi identifies their own form, attributes and mind with those of a yidam for the purpose of transformation."

I have said many times that the light is universal consciousness and that emptiness of Universal Consciousness is what makes a Buddha. I have said that emptiness of self is the realization of the light.

What do you think Jesus is referring to as motion and rest? Sound like void and form or Shakti and Shiva?

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'

[jonesboy]

Since Kashmir Shavism was mentioned. Here is an amazing realization from a true master on what the Heart aka the Light really is.

The Heart of Siva

The Heart, says Abhinavagupta, is the very Self of Siva, of Bhairava,

and of the Devi, the Goddess who is inseparable from Siva. Indeed,

the Heart is the site of their union (yamala), of their embrace (samghatta).

This abode is pure consciousness (caitanya) as well as unlimited bliss

(ananda). As consciousness the Heart is the unbounded, infinite light

(prakasa) as well as the freedom (svatantrya) and spontaneity (vimarsa)

of that light to appear in a multitude and variety of forms. The Heart,

says Abhinavagupta, is the sacred fire-pit of Bhairava.1

The Heart is the Ultimate (anuttara) which is both utterly transcendent

to (visvottirna) and yet totally immanent in (visvamaya) all created things.

It is the ultimate essence (sara). Thus, the Heart embodies the paradoxical

nature of Siva and is therefore a place of astonishment (camatkara), sheer

wonder (vismaya), and ineffable mystery. The Heart is the fullness and

unboundedness of Siva (purnatva), the plenum of being that overflows

continuously into manifestation. At the same time, it is also an inconceivable

emptiness (sunyatisunya).2 The Heart is the unbounded and

universal Self (purnahanta).

The Heart of Siva is not a static or inert absolute, however. In fact,

the non-dual Kashmir Shaiva tradition considers it to be in a state of

perpetual movement, a state of vibration (spanda)3 in which it is continuously

contracting and expanding (samkoca-vikasa), opening and closing

(unmesa-nimesa), trembling (ullasita), quivering (sphurita), throbbing,

waving, and sparkling (ucchalata). The intensity and speed of this move

ment is such that paradoxically it is simultaneously a perfect dynamic

stillness.4

The tradition states that the Heart is the enormous ocean (ambunidhi),

the ocean of light, the ocean of consciousness. The waters of consciousness

that in man are broken by countless polarizing and divisive waves (urmi)

may be easily brought to a state of dynamic stillness by the process of

immersion or absorption (samdvesa) in the Heart.

[davidmartin]

sky, the teacher from Nazareth see's it different from 114, sort of. If you add 22 it agrees again. I think the 'Every female who makes herself male' is authentic. The bit about Peter is a later addition to the text, cause whenever the disciples are portrayed as being favoured or whacked down this reflects battles in the early Christian movement with various factions favouring one set over another, and trying to honour their founding apostle sometimes ending up with multiple versions of the same apostle.

it's well known the earliest church battled it out using their writings to advance or bash accordingly. In Thomas it's Peter getting a bashing (as usual) with Thomas, Mary and Salome giving Gnostic notes but nothing definitely Gnostic... throwing scholars a curve ball. and having to admit it's not Gnostic at all, and appearing to directly contradict Gnostic ideas of matter being evil (Jesus can be found under rocks and stones!!) This is reflective of pre-Gnostic thought more akin to Jesus of Nazareth so there you have it.

Jesus comes out as still mysterious and they are baffled :) The Odes of Solomon are another kick in the balls to those claiming Jesus was an orthodox Jewish rabbi or ever taught Gnostic matter/spirit dualism and that whole demiurge idea which there is no evidence Jesus ever taught.
So this Peter stuff is best taken with a pinch of salt
We don't have a window into those days but scholars do recon it's likely.

Jesus seemed to have his sights on Jewish, not Greek theology
Here, Adam and Eve are created in God's image, male and female equally undivided in the source, divided in the manifestation and flowering of creation. This is ancient theology that says sacrifice is worship not penance for delaying recognition of the truth or pushing God away while acknowledging his goodness. or praying without listening to his replies
This is Jewish wisdom teachings but holds firmly to the idea there is one God alone.

Jesus agrees with the rest of us about God as the Father, because masculine language is better suited to that. He takes the hits like a man. There is truth to that. But the female aspect is essential as the masculine aspects, if not more so because they are deeper but men are the better explorers but women the better guides. And all of this is in balance reflecting the divine harmony above. That is what he believed according to this gospel and the Odes of Solomon confirm it. It is a mystical, spiritual Judaism which is way more insanely Jewish imagined. how can I put it? That everyone believes in the same God. The feminine attributes are part of God equally, as is seen by observing nature and the equally important role played by both sexes

So 114 only points back to that more original Jewish stuff with a gloss reflecting Greeks struggling to transmit on his teaching but they didn't do a bad job with the gospel of Thomas!

It's virgin Jesus material and presents an otherworldly saviour who is accessible. Buddhists seem to like it for it's wild and intense stabs at illusory nature. It is earthy and ravages illusion in all forms it appears in taking no prisoners and head butting you with unexpected bursts of insight that you even start laughing at the way he teaches and his agricultural parables that would have looked barbarian to a sophisticated Greek audience in those days. he blows them away with a deeper wisdom that their philosophy can't handle with the most zenned out stuff since Zarathustra.

It's got to be acknowledged he rocked out in this gospel without performing any miracles or having a miraculous birth or any crucifixion or hint he wasn't still around when it was written! It makes more sense of Jesus as we see him in the new testament but the gospel of Thomas is only teachings, it is missing emphasis deriving from the teachings found in the earliest church like reference to the Holy Spirit and baptism

It is a celebration of life that Jesus was talking about and not worry all will be resolved with deep breaths on the changes of the ages which are best surfed with minimal surface area hanging onto a sail standing on a tiny plank of wood and only kept afloat by harvesting the wind and trying to ride the waves watching your board crash under and over, buffeted and blown about, your freaking loving it and still buzzing from the big wave that you rode over the edge into free fall. Time to put on my make-up

[django]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Nowhere will you see Jesus saying him or the Father creates the light. You are that, you just haven't realized it. What is beyond ego and where do you place the realization of void and form with form being the light/energy that is all things?

John 8:12

12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

You might not like it, but Christianity posits a false light not of Jesus or God but of Satan - (2Cor11:14) Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. (Matthew 6:22-23) If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

According to the bible, light isn't just light. You can personally disagree with this, but if you are going to refer to Light in any Christian context this is part of the deal which cannot be removed.

In Christianity there is God and Satan, if you prefer concepts like everything is illusion including Satan (and God?) then I would reckon Christianity is not for you.


Yes, when males truly realize the female and females truly realize the male/female as being one and the same it is the union of Shakti and Shiva, Yab Yum in Buddhism, the bridal chamber in Christianity.

I understand the bridal chamber in Christianity to be the union of the prepared self or soul with Jesus, nothing to do with male/female. (Matthew 9:15) And Jesus said to them, Can the children of the bride-chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then they will fast.' Jesus is the bridegroom. We are children of the bride-chamber.

Also, have you noticed that Buddha's have male and female aspects? That is why.

"Avalokiteśvara (/ˌʌvloʊkɪˈteɪʃvərə, ˌʌvə-/ UV-loh-kih-TAY-shvər-ə, UV-ə-;[1] Sanskrit: अवलोकितेश्वर) is a bodhisattva who embodies the compassion of all Buddhas. This bodhisattva is variably depicted, described and is portrayed in different cultures as either female or male."

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Union with a loving God, couldn't one say a Buddha is a loving God?

No, one really couldn't. "The word 'Buddha' is a title, which means 'one who is awake' — in the sense of having 'woken up to reality'. The Buddha was born as Siddhartha Gautama in Nepal around 2,500 years ago. He did not claim to be a god or a prophet. He was a human being who became Enlightened." https://thebuddhistcentre.com/text/who-was-buddha

"Yidam is a type of deity associated with tantric or Vajrayana Buddhism said to be manifestations of Buddhahood or enlightened mind. During personal meditation (sādhana) practice, the yogi identifies their own form, attributes and mind with those of a yidam for the purpose of transformation."

"Besides gods, dead humans, and fictional humans, all sorts of monsters, demons, and miscellaneous spooks also function as yidams." https://vividness.live/2017/02/09/yi...ach-naturally/

As long as you consider them enlightened they can function as a yidam. This means that Jesus could even function as a yidam

I have said many times that the light is universal consciousness and that emptiness of Universal Consciousness is what makes a Buddha. I have said that emptiness of self is the realization of the light.

Saying something many times does not constitute a proof though. I disagree with what you are saying, and I have tried to give my reasons for disagreeing. I personally value Jesus as the intermediary between my self and what I consider the true light, I think any other path is into false light, most likely we will have to agree to disagree.

What do you think Jesus is referring to as motion and rest? Sound like void and form or Shakti and Shiva?

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'

..........

[django]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Since Kashmir Shavism was mentioned. Here is an amazing realization from a true master on what the Heart aka the Light really is.

And here is a Hindu version of this self-created Self and oneness:

9.34 Let Prana (breath) go up the lighted path of Susumna Nadi, fine as the Lotus stalk. Upon arrival at the silent Anahata Chakra, peels of Pranava, Om fills the center; chant the Mantra Om on the out-breath. (Solar rays pass up the Susumna Nadi.)

9.35 Chant Pranava Mantra Om ten times at each sitting thrice daily; you will gradually gain control over your breath; you will be ready for meditation.

9.36 Deep in the cave of the heart there is an inverted eight petal lotus bud pointing down from its stalk. (note: heart here refers to spiritual heart, which is present on the right side of the anterior chest--No! it is not an anatomical organ.)

9.37 While meditating, visualize the lotus petals open revealing in its center, Sun, Moon, and Fire. See the Self (Krishna) in whatever native form one likes.

9.38 Whatever form of Krishna or Self you choose, let it shine and smile upon you.

9.39 Krishna says, I will be in the center of the lotus as a dark nimbus cloud with eyes and face radiating grace and love and Lakshmi sitting on my chest.

9.40 Visualize me with scintillating jewels, ankle bells, bracelets, and shining lotus feet.

9.41 Let your mind build my image of my body in all its parts and see my complete self as an immanent being there.

9.42 Shut out the external world; withdraw from all sensory stimuli; fix your mind on me in the very center of the heart lotus; keep going towards the epicenter of the lotus (involution).

9.43 As your travel towards the center and concentrate your attention, your mind flows in a continuous stream; hold your attention on the benign face of My being.

9.44 Concentrate on My face for a while; later let My form vanish and what is left behind is the Self; hold on to it and become one with it; now the Self and you are one.

9.45 Remain in that state; it is like fire fusing with fire.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

.
John 8:12

12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Sounds like a guru to me. Also, did not Jesus speak in parables to the masses but gave his true teachings to his disciples?

You might not like it, but Christianity posits a false light not of Jesus or God but of Satan - (2Cor11:14) Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. (Matthew 6:22-23) If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

That is a letter from Paul talking about False Apostles. Talking about other people preaching the gospel that he doesn't approve of.

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

According to the bible, light isn't just light. You can personally disagree with this, but if you are going to refer to Light in any Christian context this is part of the deal which cannot be removed.

I think I have been more than clear that light isn't just light. Not sure where you get that.

In Christianity there is God and Satan, if you prefer concepts like everything is illusion including Satan (and God?) then I would reckon Christianity is not for you.

The Pope has admitted that hell isn't real.

I am just saying that hell and satan is ones attachments, the mind.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

And here is a Hindu version of this self-created Self and oneness:

9.34 Let Prana (breath) go up the lighted path of Susumna Nadi, fine as the Lotus stalk. Upon arrival at the silent Anahata Chakra, peels of Pranava, Om fills the center; chant the Mantra Om on the out-breath. (Solar rays pass up the Susumna Nadi.)

9.35 Chant Pranava Mantra Om ten times at each sitting thrice daily; you will gradually gain control over your breath; you will be ready for meditation.

9.36 Deep in the cave of the heart there is an inverted eight petal lotus bud pointing down from its stalk. (note: heart here refers to spiritual heart, which is present on the right side of the anterior chest--No! it is not an anatomical organ.)

9.37 While meditating, visualize the lotus petals open revealing in its center, Sun, Moon, and Fire. See the Self (Krishna) in whatever native form one likes.

9.38 Whatever form of Krishna or Self you choose, let it shine and smile upon you.

9.39 Krishna says, I will be in the center of the lotus as a dark nimbus cloud with eyes and face radiating grace and love and Lakshmi sitting on my chest.

9.40 Visualize me with scintillating jewels, ankle bells, bracelets, and shining lotus feet.

9.41 Let your mind build my image of my body in all its parts and see my complete self as an immanent being there.

9.42 Shut out the external world; withdraw from all sensory stimuli; fix your mind on me in the very center of the heart lotus; keep going towards the epicenter of the lotus (involution).

9.43 As your travel towards the center and concentrate your attention, your mind flows in a continuous stream; hold your attention on the benign face of My being.

9.44 Concentrate on My face for a while; later let My form vanish and what is left behind is the Self; hold on to it and become one with it; now the Self and you are one.

9.45 Remain in that state; it is like fire fusing with fire.

Kashmir Shaivism is Hindu.

I would not say that is not oneness but more a method like Yidam deity practice. Where do you get the self created self and oneness pov?

Also, so there is no confusion I am more Non dual than a Oneness guy.

Maybe the Shiva Sutras will help.

3.1. ātmā cittam

Individual being is the mind entangled in the wheel of repeated birth and death.

3.2. jñānaṁ bandhaḥ

(For this limited individual), all knowledge is bondage.

3.3. kalādīnāṁ tattvānāmaviveko māyā

Being unable to possess the undifferentiated knowledge of the thirty-one elements, you live in those elements, from kalā to pṛithvī (earth), which are the expansion of the energy of illusion (māyā śakti).

3.4. śarīre saṁhāraḥ kalānām

You must make all the circles (kalās) in your body enter one into the other from gross to subtle.

3.5. nāḍīsaṁhāra-bhūtajaya-bhūtakaivalya-
 bhūtapṛithaktvāni

The merging of the movements of breathing, controlling the gross elements, diverting attention from all objective senses and directing it towards the center of the movement of the breath, and removing your consciousness from the grip of the elementary field, …

3.6. mohāvaraṇātsiddhih

… these powers are brought into existence when a yogi’s consciousness is covered by the energy of illusion (māyā).

3.7. mohajayād anantābhogāt sahajavidyājayaḥ

After conquering the field of illusion (māyā) by destroying its many impressions, one attains the victory of the pure knowledge of consciousness.

3.8. jāgratdvitīyakarah

The waking state is another formation of his real nature of consciousness.

3.9. nartaka ātmā

The dancer in this field of universal dance is his self of universal consciousness.

3.10. raṅgo’ntarātmā

The player is the internal soul.

3.11. prekṣakāṇīndriyāṇi

His own organs are spectators.

3.12. dhīvaśātsattvasiddhiḥ

By means of a supreme intellect filled with awareness of the self, this yogī experiences that he is actually acting.

3.13. siddhaḥ svatantrabhāvaḥ

The state of absolute independence is already achieved.

3.14. yathā tatra tathānyatra

This (absolute independence) is the same in the external world as it was in samādhi.

3.15. bījāvadhānam

Maintain breakless awareness on that supreme energy which is the seed of the universe.

3.16. āsanasthaḥ sukhaṁ hrade nimajjati

Seated in that real posture, he effortlessly dives in the ocean of nectar.

3.17. svamātrānirmāṇamāpādayati

Experiencing that this objective world is the product of his subjective consciousness, he can create anything he desires.

3.18. vidyā ‘vināśe janmavināśaḥ

When his knowledge of the Self is permanently established, then birth (and death) are gone forever.

3.19. kavargādiṣu māheśvaryādyāḥ paśumātaraḥ

In the world of letters, words and sentences, the eight energies of the Lord, who are the mothers of beasts (take control and hold him).

3.20. triṣu caturthaṁ tailavadāsecyam

The fourth state (turya) must be expanded like oil so that it pervades the other three: waking, dreaming and deep sleep.

3.21. magnaḥ svacittena praviśet

The yogī who is merged in his self must enter completely with his mind filled with great awareness.

3.22. prāṇasamācāre samadarśanam

When his breath begins to slowly move out toward the external state, then he also experiences the pervasion of God consciousness there.

3.23. madhye ‘varaprasavaḥ

He does not experience the state of God consciousness in the center of these three states.

3.24. mātrāsvapratyayasaṁdhāne naṣṭasya punarutthānam

When a yogī, in coming out from samādhi, also attempts to maintain awareness of God consciousness in the objective world, then, even though his real nature of self is destroyed by the inferior generation of self-consciousness, he again rises in that supreme nature of the self.

3.25. śivatulyo jāyate

He becomes just like Śiva.

3.26. śarīravṛittirvratam

His virtuous behavior is the maintenance of his body.

3.27. kathā japaḥ

Ordinary talk of life is the recitation of mantra.

3.28. dānamātmajñānam

His only purpose for remaining in his body is to impart knowledge to others.

3.29. yo’vipastho jñāhetuśca

The one who rules the wheel of energies becomes the cause of inserting knowledge in others.

3.30. śvaśaktipracayo’sya viśvam

For him, this universe is the embodiment of his collective energies.

3.31. sthitilayau

This universe is the expansion of his energy in objective impressions and in the dissolution of those impressions.

3.32. tatpravṛittāvapyanirāsaḥ saṁvettṛibhāvāt

Although he is determined in creating, protecting and destroying the universe, even then he is not separated from the real state of his subjectivity.

3.33. sukhaduḥkhayorbahirmananam

He experiences his joy and his sadness just like an object, with “this-consciousness” separate from his being.

3.34. tadvimuktastu kevalī

Separated from pleasure and pain, he is established in real seclusion.

3.35. mohapratisaṁhatastu karmātmā

The yogī whose God consciousness is destroyed by this state of illusion is dependent on his action.

3.36. bhedatiraskāre sargāntarakarmatvam

He drives away the field of differentiated perceptions and enters into a new world of God consciousness.

3.37. karaṇa śaktiḥ svato’nubhavāt

The power of creation is the experience of every individual.

3.38. tripadādyanuprāṇanam

Emerging from turya, insert the absolute bliss of that state into the waking, dreaming and deep sleep states and they will become one with that state of turya.

3.39. citta sthitivaccharīra karaṇabāhyeṣu

This awareness of God consciousness should not only be infused in that state where one’s mind is established in one-pointedness but it should also be infused in the establishment of his body, in his organic actions and in the external objective world.

3.40. abhilāṣādbahirgatiḥ saṁvāhyasya

Due to the insatiable and insistent desire to fill the gap (in his nature), his flow and movement are toward the objective world, not subjective consciousness, and so he is carried from one birth to another.

3.41. tadārūḍhapramitestatkṣayājjīva saṁkṣayaḥ

All desire vanishes in that fortunate person whose consciousness is established in his own real nature. For him the state of being a limited individual has ended.

3.42. bhūtakañcukī tadā vimukto bhūyaḥ patisamaḥ paraḥ

For him, the five elements are only coverings. At that very moment, he is absolutely liberated, supreme and just like Śiva.

I could also post where the guru is the light and the way, surrender to the guru, etc.

Remember Jesus even mentioned of one coming after him so he wasn't saying he was the only way.

[davidmartin]

I think the problem is to people who explore mysticism and esoteric spirituality, Jesus sounds, looks and acts like a guru or sage, and his teachings seem advanced and worthy of study

Christianity hasn't figured out how to explain this. Instead of embracing and exploring this side of Jesus they want to deny it.
Maybe that's because it might threaten his role as saviour, but I hardly think so, he can be a teacher and a saviour at the same time.

I think Christians should explore the mystical aspects of his teaching, why not? nothing to lose, especially if you're not getting anywhere with your current preachers leading you back to square one all the time, why not try Jesus?

[jojo50]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Jesus repeatedly states Heaven isn't some place.

Heaven ISN'T in the sky, it it were we will see it! it's NOT for ANY human eye to see. when Jesus was saying his Father's Kingdom is within us. he meant that his true followers and those who worship his Father Jehovah God. has the Kingdom in their Hearts. because they KNOW... that the Kingdom is very real! and they plan on being there. are you trying to tell me that when Jesus TOLD... us to pray..."YOUR KINGDOM COME"... "ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN". Jesus meant that he was referring to the heart? sorry but that's not so! Jesus WAS!... referring to an actual Kingdom! if he wasn't as you believe. then please explain these verses...

(1). Matt. 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men. for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

(2). John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

(3). Matt. 26:29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom. so contrary to what you believe or thought, Jesus "repeatly" speak of his Father's Kingdom/ Heaven being an actual place. peace

[davidmartin]

JoJo I think Heaven is a place too
It doesn't have to be made up of this matter and atoms of our universe but still a place. some people don't like even the hint of physicality as it's connected to maya/illusion so maybe that's why jonesboy doesn't like the concept of a place. but the created universe and matter is only illusion to us, it all comes from God. The illusions that man creates are far more threatening, and I think you can divorce them from material nature and speak of heaven as a place

it's in heaven, its potentially in our hearts and our world
hearts, world, heaven are all places
just as you can't storm heaven by force, you can't force it on someone's heart or force it on the world