Anattā (no self)

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I googled a respected website for you to research because you won’t take my word for it.

Even with teachings on the Primordial State, multiple sutras, multiple traditions using energy techniques you still won’t open your mind beyond your view.

The Heart Sutra states that void=form and form=void.

Form is energy, void is emptiness .

Oh my gosh - it's form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

Now you would mistranslate words to suit your agenda. Not suprising

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Yes it is at the heart of the realization.

Energy is not at the heart of realization.
Even using your convoluted and misleading translation, the Heart Sutra is not just about energy i.e. form.

"No eyes, no ears, no tongue, no body etc"

You mislead others continually because of what? Because this is the belief system you and your self imposed guru have?

As I said before, energy is easy stuff. Easy. Common. Basic.

It's respected, many professions work in this: Reiki, shiatsu.

This world is made up of energy fields, emotion is etc. Yet you would convolute the Buddha's teachings, mistranslate, and mis-impose teachings to suit some personal, selfish agenda to back up your repeated mistakes. Whether that is magic is central to Buddhism to now saying energy is the heart of Buddhism.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

What about the teachings on Shine and Rigpa?

You get to the point where your thoughts are flows of energy, silent or not right?

There is a teaching above on Rigpa. And no, your description of it is not accurate.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I can talk about energy from personal experience. I can show you a thread where I started spiritual practices, doing pranayama and my progression using the methods.

Instead of attacking me maybe you should talk to a lama and ask him. Then come back and we can talk.

Energy practices - whatever feelings you have had, experiences you've felt - these are ordinary matters.

Your spiritual practices are clear to my way of seeing - the incessant mistranslation and taking things out of context, claiming Buddhism is just an energy practice and energy is at the heart of what Buddha taught; misquoting and misrepresenting the Heart Sutra.

Claiming you can do empowerments. As I said many times before, Dzogchen is not a personal playground - it's a deep and reputable lineage upheld by people who are versed in the real practices and inner knowings of the school. Not for you to quote and google and mislead with.

YMMV.

JL

[Rain95]

Morning Rant Thought Stream About Anatta (no self)

Originally Posted by running

my journey has been about everybody selling me something. one thing after another. until i finally had enough. went on a war path for what i know to be true.

I can relate. People everywhere saying believe this, think this, accept this. I've been thinking about that word "enlightenment" which was the topic of another thread. So much baggage in that word. To measure up, achieve something, realize something, become something. More selling..... accept these imposed goals, ideas, make them a part of YOUR life as they are in mine.....

Judging others, judging ourselves, like us ourselves taking on our parents roles, our teaches roles, long after we have become adults, become our own captains of our ship, left school with their thumbs on our minds. Still telling ourselves we don't measure up in some way. Then a forum, with others telling us we are wrong, telling us how me must think and believe and speak and interpret.

Then all the baggage from religious authorities. Buddha said, Jesus said, Rama Dama Ding Dong said....God or Karma is watching us.... we are sinners, we have sinned....we have our energy in the wrong chakra, we need to be better, read this or that, do this or that practice, listen and learn from what others claim we are...and need to do.

A lot of noise, in others, in ourselves, light weights we hold, like rocks in a back pack on our backs. But then ok, all of this exists, it is all present, people yelling at us to believe and accept this or that, our own selves reacting, asserting, experiencing conflict with others. Then all this "entertainment." TV, movies, video games, news, celebrities, drama, gossip, Getting old, getting sick, failing in stuff, messed up relationships, unfulfilled goals and desires, not being what we want, life not being fair, idiot people imposing their inventions on us, their 5g wifi, cell towers outside our window, radar in our cars, our cars now being hot spots...

But in all of this, in this reality, this is where reality put us, reality says this, here, is where we belong. I don't want to belong here, I don't want this to be where I belong, to be where reality puts us, as our niche, the place we fit in.

So I reject the voices, of others, of myself, of authorities, Reject the salesmen. Reject it all. Reject the idea I need to become something,, achieve something, change in some way, That is all noise. The same noise that brought me here in this physical world and dying body. But then all of this emptying, rejecting, no longer listening, letting go, surrendering, does change me. I just am, silent within, just here now as it is, with no conflict being created by mind and others minds, then I am still here, but I am different. I am not like the rest. And then after I pass from this world, I won't come back, because I no longer fit here, no longer are a part of this. I will reside where there is no selling, no judgment, no becoming, where I just am, in the present moment, awake, experiencing the gifts that come and go, the wonder, the unlimited mystery that is always here now, when we are here without "ourselves," without a person, with all that baggage and noise. I don't want to be something here, because here is not where I want to belong.

One day we will leave this body, this planet, this dimension. Then the sorting wheel will determine where our energy belongs. Don't belong here because you will come back. Be nothing and a nobody. Create no conflict within or without, Just be, don't be something or somebody. Don't imagine there is something here, that you are something, this thing that needs to do something, become something. There is nothing here,. You are nothing in particular,. You are just awareness. Just perception. Without a goal or desire. Laying in the grass, sitting on a beach, walking through a forest, playing with a child, laughing with friends. Just being love and peace. The more you empty yourself, the more you are filled, with that essence of all that is. With the essence that is in consciousness, but not the lower energies of the animal and physical world.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Gem,

That is your view. Any craving for a thing needs to be let go of. Buddhism doesn’t hide from it.

What are thoughts?

What is the mind?

What is everything?

Is any of it separate from you?

It is all energy and it is all you.

If it is all energy then YES energy is a central part of the Buddhist realization.

Pretty simple stuff tbh.

Also, Vedana is not energy it is feeling.

Two different terms and very misleading on your part.

It is all energy but now apparently feeling is not energy.

jonesboy, here's a shortcut for you:

Everything is energy, yet form is also emptiness, no eye, ear, nose, tongue, no body mind, no consciousness.

Where is your energy now?

But everything is energy and therefore the heart of Buddha's teachings is simply energy!!

Oh dear. Why did the Buddha even bother teaching were it so base? Oh because of course his teachings are not above. How silly would that be. Why Zen doesn't use it. Theravadan doesn't. Pure Land doesn't. Tibetan only sparingly and in a certain context.

If it were only above, it would only need an afternoon of self-declared logic and imagination.

Oh how fortunate, that the teachings are so much truer, deeper and beautiful than this.

How wonderful.

JL

Originally Posted by running

not so much. i just enjoy speaking my opinion. which doesnt have to mean anything. since im not a buddhist. and everybody has an opinion.

i do think its wise to question things that do not make sense in the real world. what was said if followed by somebody whom experinces such could prevent him or herself from growing. if one experinces bliss and reads that and follows it without question. as i stated the bull got his balls cut off.

i realize for most poeple perhaps it will never matter. but for some it does. so it gives me joy to speak my mind in such cases.

It's nice that it gives you joy, running. I will share the standpoint with you then that bliss is possible, but when it's another attachment, it's just another attachment.

You are the Bliss King - you like to talk about it incessantly, argue that this is the way for others. I don't fault you. How can I? You believe it in deeply and this is your living experience.

But it's not for me - the bull got his balls cut off?

Buddhism is a deep spiritual teaching. It looks really easy on the surface and in some ways it is, but it's also an ongoing practice of diligence and awareness.

The Buddha taught that what comes and goes, is not it. We live with the Awakened, the Deathless, what some traditions call Rigpa, others call Natural Mind, others call Satori.

We live in thus, and our only purpose is thus.

You've spoken of healing before, healing is something inherent through genuine Buddhist practices. Self healing. Emotional healing. Unfolding of ego and self. It's all inherent in a true practice. It comes and does not abide by the false.

Your message is clear - take that energy and envelop in it. But we are not interested in such intermediate steps, such basic truths. We are not interested in second or third base. We are here for the Ultimate. And that is what the Buddhas teach, for those with the hearts to hear.

Take care,

JL

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You know that is not true and I am not sure why you are saying that.

My quote on the subject was taken from a Dzogchen Master.

Your link reaffirms what I was saying.

You just refuse to accept it and instead would prefer to attack people.

Except it doesn't. And neither do all the teachings. I am sure you can google energy and all the traditions and find another one or two, but that's how desperate this endeavour is, and how little substance it has behind it.

Energy is a basic word, like light, or sensation. Googling it is easy. But I harken you to stop misrepresenting things. I understand you may not understand many of the teachings at a deeper level, so thank you for your understanding herein.

Take care,

JL

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by janielee

Oh my gosh - it's form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

Now you would mistranslate words to suit your agenda. Not suprising



Energy is not at the heart of realization.
Even using your convoluted and misleading translation, the Heart Sutra is not just about energy i.e. form.

"No eyes, no ears, no tongue, no body etc"

You mislead others continually because of what? Because this is the belief system you and your self imposed guru have?

As I said before, energy is easy stuff. Easy. Common. Basic.

It's respected, many professions work in this: Reiki, shiatsu.

This world is made up of energy fields, emotion is etc. Yet you would convolute the Buddha's teachings, mistranslate, and mis-impose teachings to suit some personal, selfish agenda to back up your repeated mistakes. Whether that is magic is central to Buddhism to now saying energy is the heart of Buddhism.



There is a teaching above on Rigpa. And no, your description of it is not accurate.



Energy practices - whatever feelings you have had, experiences you've felt - these are ordinary matters.

Your spiritual practices are clear to my way of seeing - the incessant mistranslation and taking things out of context, claiming Buddhism is just an energy practice and energy is at the heart of what Buddha taught; misquoting and misrepresenting the Heart Sutra.

Claiming you can do empowerments. As I said many times before, Dzogchen is not a personal playground - it's a deep and reputable lineage upheld by people who are versed in the real practices and inner knowings of the school. Not for you to quote and google and mislead with.

YMMV.

JL

In the definition of the Primordial State is clearly says that everything in all dimensions is energy.

Energy is form.

I did not make up any definition of Rigpa. I posted almost the entire book on Shine meditation that leads to Rigpa.

That is Dzogchen master Norbus teaching not mine that you are dismissing.

People that doe reiki are able to feel and see energy, open to chakra 5 and 6.

Energy is part of the base of the the Primordial Wisdoms.

I have never, ever said I give empowerment’s. Again it is you with an agenda saying things that are not true.

Also, If emptiness = emptiness it would say void=void not form now wouldn’t it?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by janielee

It is all energy but now apparently feeling is not energy.

jonesboy, here's a shortcut for you:

Everything is energy, yet form is also emptiness, no eye, ear, nose, tongue, no body mind, no consciousness.

Where is your energy now?

But everything is energy and therefore the heart of Buddha's teachings is simply energy!!

Oh dear. Why did the Buddha even bother teaching were it so base? Oh because of course his teachings are not above. How silly would that be. Why Zen doesn't use it. Theravadan doesn't. Pure Land doesn't. Tibetan only sparingly and in a certain context.

If it were only above, it would only need an afternoon of self-declared logic and imagination.

Oh how fortunate, that the teachings are so much truer, deeper and beautiful than this.

How wonderful.

JL

Feelings are energy but is a progressive understanding.

It is very much like the teachings on thoughts.

First you are caught up in them, then with greater silence you are able to observe them. With still greater silence you realize the are flows of energy whose true nature is emptiness much like the wind blowing against your face.

Therevada is not tantric, Pure land has very little techniques and mostly prayer.

Tibetan Buddhism using energy techniques all over the place.

Zen also uses chakras but puts very little into energy practices.

All that being said, energy anyway you want to say it is part of the realization of a Buddha be it zen or any other tradition.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by janielee

Except it doesn't. And neither do all the teachings. I am sure you can google energy and all the traditions and find another one or two, but that's how desperate this endeavour is, and how little substance it has behind it.

Energy is a basic word, like light, or sensation. Googling it is easy. But I harken you to stop misrepresenting things. I understand you may not understand many of the teachings at a deeper level, so thank you for your understanding herein.

Take care,

JL

It did but you either did not understand the teachings or refuse to accept them like you have been doing.

If you wish we can take some teachings like the Primordial State and discuss why you think it is saying energy is so basic and not part of the realization.

We can also do Norbu’s teachings on Shine and Rigpa.

It is much easier to discuss a teaching than for you to say I and others are misleading people for some purpose.

In all honesty it is you who are misleading people with your lack of knowledge of Buddhism and it’s teachings.

[Rain95]

If I go camping, I don't put my tent next to a bunch of bears or mountain lions. Why? Because I naturally prefer peace and serenity, to conflict. That's what I prefer to experience. I mean I could bring hunting stuff and try to find bears, but yea my nature is not into killing or hunting or conflict, so I don't seek it. Now bears can hide or disguise what they are, (to make the metaphor a little clearer) so I get sucked in, but when I become aware of what they are or are doing, I move away. I remove them from my experience and perception.

I will choose a forest trail leading to a waterfall, over a city, choose a monastery over a church, choose to move away from persons who all full of energy I don't prefer. Ignore them, block them, so I no longer see their posts or experience their intent. That's not to say they are not intelligent and really clever, they are very good at what they do. And they are free to create any kind of life and experience they prefer. But then they are seeking to impose an experience on another and they are very proficient at it. Well if they can get you to read or see their words. If you don't look at such things, they have to find others to play their games with. They produce little experience in you.

It's like I rent an apartment in a quiet safe part of town, away from drug addicts, gangs and such. Not because I hate such things, but simply because I prefer peace and serenity. Now somebody could say, well that's not being spiritual. A Buddha could be at peace anywhere. But see I don't accept the dogma there is something in me that can be spiritual or a Buddha. I don't imagine a person here, that can be or achieve this or that. I just am perception and awareness. I fully experience whatever is here now in this moment, in my mind, though my mind is usually empty if I am keeping it that way through my preferences for it to be in such a state.

So yea I don't claim to be spiritual, or advanced, or enlightened. I'm not religious nor holding onto philosophies. I don't claim to have any kind of spiritual skill or proficiency or rank. I don't claim to be anything at all. I reject all beliefs and opinions. I reject judgment. But then I am aware of what I am now, what I am experiencing now, and in that I prefer peace within and without, so when it is not present, when I am creating something else, and then when I become aware of what I am doing and creating, change occurs, the experience changes, conflict ends, resistance ends, the assertion of a person ends. The nature of what I am asserts it preference and it becomes the now.

Just some ideas that appeared to my attention when I was taking a shower. I put them on a sidewalk with chalk for the rain and wind to eventually come and make disappear, leaving no mark.

[jonesboy]

For the book The Self Perfected State by Norbu.

“Samsara and nirvana are nothing other

than the dualistic aspect of one single essence manifesting

through energy. This energy itself is in fact inseparable from

the manifestation, as is symbolized by the vajra form of the

bell's handle.

The Tantras are teachings based on the knowledge and

application of energy.”

....

“The manifestation of the Sambhogakaya comes about

through three factors: sound, light, and rays. Sound is the

first stage of the manifestation of energy, which, in the dirnension of manifestation, is perceived as mantra. This type of mantra, called the "Natural Sound of the Vajra" since it

arises spontaneously, is used in practice to integrate the visualization (of the mandala of the divinity) with the function of one's own energy. Light, the second stage of manifestation, is the visible aspect of energy, energy still in a phase prior to its assuming any specific form. And then, thirdly,

through the rays manifest all the infinite forms and colours

of the mandala of the divinity. Every individual potentially”

“possesses these three aspects of manifestation.”

...

“All tantras are based on the principle of transformation,

working with the knowledge of how energy functions. The

very meaning of the word tantra-" continuation" -refers

to the nature of the energy of the primordial state, which

manifests without interruption.”

...

“In the same way the "void" is not an attribute

of an "abstract condition" of things, but is the very nature of their

materiality.

4. Thugs rje ma' gags pa. In many Western translations the term”

“thugs rje, in a Dzogchen context, has been rendered as "compassion." According to the explanation given by Namkhai Norbu, this is an imprecise and partial interpretation of the term. Thugs

means "the state of the mind," and rje means "lord." What is being referred to is in fact energy, which is the manifestation of the primordial state. In the sutras, compassion is considered to be the

energy of the void, and thus it is also called thugs rje. But in

Dzogchen, compassion is regarded as being only one of the many

aspects of energy.”

“The Paths of Renunciation and of Transformation”

“In tantrism, method (upaya; thabs) and energy (prajfia; shes rab)

are considered to be the two fundamental principles of existence,

corresponding to male and female, or solar and lunar energies.

Prajfia (superior knowledge) in this context is synonymous with

"energy.”