Anattā (no self)

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

My point there was about methods. Methods assert self and person. In this present moment, I am aware of what is. I don't try to be aware, that brings in person. I don't seek any particular thing, that brings in person. I don't judge what it is, that brings in person. I don't conceptualize it or myself, that brings in person. I am just here now as a perceiver. Things arise, I am aware of them. Things that are present, I am aware of them. I'm am not adding content, I am just aware of content that is inherently here, or added by others. I myself add none. Thus, any practice, any method, if I entertain these, it introduces my content, my person, thus I no longer am as aware of what is inherently here as it is.

Being in the present moment without ANY interpretation, interpretation is ego and conditioning. There is nothing to do in this space, nothing. No matter how refined or subtle is the "method" bringing it into now brings in the person, the conditioning, the delusional self.

There is nothing to do as a "doer" is me adding content, me adding an interpretation of what this is. I just am. I am awake, aware, paying attention. That is the starting point. The beginning of the journey. Find out how to get there. Let go of being somebody and something. Be nothing and nobody. Selfless. Without achievement, without anything. Just here empty in harmony with all there is, as there is nothing to become between me and that. This or That is what I am, what is my experience, and not adding my own content, my own interpretation, the experience of that has changed. I see and experience it as it is in itself.

I look and see a snake and a dove, this exists and is perceived. One tries to bites me, one displays grace and beauty. I naturally avoid the snake, I naturally look long at the dove... I move though experience becoming less and less....and in this I become more. Then less of me I perceive, the more of not me I perceive. Awareness, understanding increases.

Refining is all well and good, but better is to just throw away that which is being refined. Carry nothing, then nothing needs to be refined.

9 ' I am ' .
9 ' I '.

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, I believe being ardent is the way, and suggest proper ardent practice.

Yes

Originally Posted by Gem

That's right. You have to really pay attention with all your attention. The satipatthana says no matter 7 years or 7 days, one will reach the highest wisdom or the stage of non-returner, so I'm not too sure time is a thing, but the basic message is keep looking ardently and continuously.

Yes

Originally Posted by Gem

Just to clarify 'looking' pertains to 'what is', not to be confused with 'seeking', which pertains to 'what you want' to find.

Yes and to my way of seeing, looking and seeing are two different things. "Raft builder" - but that raft builder keeps on coming. First we look, in looking we have a chance to see, in seeing we have a chance - if we are ardent and keep it up - to be free.....

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, what I experience as Buddhism is not similar to how these how these threads are because the kinds of practice we'd do, like strictly maintaining sila, at least three hours of sitting practice and group metta daily are not part of the forum standard. The adepts who have opened up don't speak loudly of it, the meditators enduring the energy movements do not advocate for it. The one enduring a lot of painful solidity might as well be advocating that for all it's worth.

Yes

Originally Posted by Gem

Our practice is the level of what is true, how we are relating to whatever the experience is, and knowing fully of ourselves what we give rise to. If reactivity of desire/aversion is there, we know, 'this is reactivity'. If equaniity is there we know 'this is equanimity'. Whatever is there 'we know' - and from that first breath, we know if it is long or short, and remain always with that same truth 'it is as it is'. The beginner mind is that and the adept mind is that and the teacher's mind also. Truth, the truth and what's true.

Yes and a note there - Luang Por Sumedho and Shuryu Suzuki note, beginners mind is important even for a master...and yes the practice is similar. This is where I diverge slightly to say that I do believe there are differences however - for example, at the simplest level, we note a fully awakened Buddha is somewhat different - Nibbana, dependent origination, fully knowing things as they are, including what consciousness is. To put it even more imprecisely, the Unknowing yields more...this is why there are different levels even as there are none...it's subtle yet also real in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Gem

Practice it with everything.

Yes. Thank you.

JL

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by janielee

Never heard of that one either, 7L Seems doubtful to me

JL

LOL...I see my searches no longer reveal the treasures I saw in years past. I'm tempted to say it's probably censorship, LOL...except that no one has heard of it...which is very odd. So it's more likely another mandela effect from as recently as the past few months.

Good to know If it really means that Lao Tzu has changed, then I'm sorry to say he's got a bit more uptight than I recall, hahahaha....

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

What your friends think of LZ no offense doesn’t carry any weight as it has zero historical back up.

You are making my point they still had desires, cravings and were far from enlightened.

Good people doesn’t make one a Buddha.

Hey there Jonesboy...see my above to Janie on how times have changed, hahaha...this was a very well known aspect of Lao Tzu "before"...In fact, Imma check wif my Chinese buds to confirm...if they say no and the govt didn't tell them to say it, then I will be nearly 100% confirmed that it's yet another odd little change.

As to the others, it's perhaps true of those men. But here's the other bit.
Do you think that a vast majority of most men wouldn't be prone to these same temptations, particularly in a position of authority of some kind? Numerous studies indicate that a vast majority of men would be -- particularly if there are caveats - if no one will know &/or if you will not be punished, guaranteed.

In particular, the vast majority of men from the past century or from this one (20th, 21st) will almost certainly fail to appropriately integrate this aspect...given that it takes a community to support and sustain any of us on our journey. And that's because society has globally (only the degree varies and not by much) undermined men's journeys by egregiously preying on their vulnerabilities via streaming porn, casual sex, and an amoral, utilitarian ethos in our most intimate relationships....including our relationships with ourselves and with the divine.

This has occurred all whilst simultaneously rendering men's closer historical emotional support systems (family, friends) bereft of platontic touch and deeper connection, and generally all-round suspect, unacceptable, and "gay" in the pejorative sense.

So...how are most men supposed to develop the restraint and core respect for women when the best men of the last several centuries -- aside from a few monks -- have not been able to integrate this? Are we saying that most men are just never gonna even remotely get there?

How about specific advice to men in particular on how to navigate this particular vulnerability? Especially given that modern society (last 50 yrs or so per history) egregiously exploits and preys on men's vulnerabilities? And which has in the last 100+years egregiously robbed men of both their historical network of emotional support and of their historical platonic touch from other men? Forcing them to use sex and sexual predation as their only socially sanctioned means to connect even superficially on a personal level.

What would you say on this regarding this severe, egregiously damaging, and pervasive context for men and their spiritual development? And more broadly, how can men approach this world we live in, in any sort of integrated, sustainable, and spiritually progressive way?

Also, by way of comparison, how do you think men like MLK and Gandhi would fare today? -- as they were pre-streaming porn, amoral/casual promiscuity, and amoral, utilitarian, deadened connections all round. Do you think most men today could approach the levels they attained with regard for universal principles of authentic love & concern for others' well-being/higher good? It sounds like the answer should be yes, then...so what's holding them back?

This is not a craving of most women...their craving is primarily for children and then in general for emotional connection with everyone in their lives. Nothing particular to men. And certainly nothing particular to sex, aside from children. However, to the degree that any woman enables men by just freely indulging their addiction/craving for casual sex on demand, it is a severe misalignment -- bordering on predatory. Meaning, I've long since come to see it's often also predatory for a woman to consent to casual sex on demand, due to men's abject vulnerabilities and severe deficits in this area regarding both supports and discipline. And not just for "borderline" types that are known predators and manipulators in this regard.

The twisted aspect is that too often the woman has typically felt pressured or coerced on her end as well, if not outright forced, so clearly it's been openly predatory on the man's end as well. But we as a society are only just beginning to understand the depth of spiritual trauma that men sustain in the current environment. It is not well-known or understood by most...whilst we are becoming better acquainted with the harms done to women by demanding sex casually, often with some vague but implicit level of threat behind it.

Any thoughts and concrete recommendations on this for men at large on their journey?

BTW concrete details regarding challenges and solutions -- and yes proscriptive advice on behaviours and boundaries -- are probably going to be necessary for folks to begin to get a handle on this and discuss further.

So when the master asks, so how's your practice going?, they will be able to say, well, I'm actually finally getting started on some of it, and's here's how.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

At the time of Buddha, women had a particular social status, and whether or not that was 'inferior' would be difficult to assess. Legend has it that Buddha did not allow female monks (nuns) at first, but Ananda (Buddha's assistant) convinced Buddha to allow females proper status in the sangha as 'monks' (nuns).

Hello Gem,
Good on him then (Ananda). I've also heard too that Buddha did that because of "the times" but that is of course hard to sort externally from his personal bias...so I gave him the benefit of the doubt...maybe it had to appear that he was not the one to make this recommend but ok if his humble devotee did it?

That said, if that's the case ("the times"), then it should be changeable and if he too has grown since his incarnation, I would assume he would now say "the time" for spiritually sanctioned misogyny &/or gender bias is past.

Which Jesus said in various ways 2000 yrs ago, fully against the mainstream culture of his day. [Hence why the Jesus look (beard, tunic, sandals) is still a recognised counterculture signaler, along with Lennon and others of the era.], despite all the regressives who currently dress that way round the globe, LOL.

So Imma stand on what I said there...giving Siddharta (<Ananda) the benefit of the doubt, were he to stand here now.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by janielee

The thing is, it's easy to deceive oneself in this practice. Headstrong or intellectually bound, the point of a teacher or guide is to help people through their own loops. Those bound cannot see it, that is the entire point. If one is fortunate, one can encounter a real guide. If not, well, things happen and as the Dalai Lama teaches, kindness is the most valid thing.

JL

Hello there Janie,
I agree kindness is the key, that and balance.

And what you say about how a teacher or guide can help is so key. Anyone can fill the role for another, at any point on our journey. And we all need to be that for one another on our journey.

This is why it takes a community to support each of us on our journey, even though it's ours to walk. I think too often we forget about how important and how precious the many communities we move amongst are.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes. In my school, at least so far as I heard, when meditators tell teachers they had a special sort of experience, the teacher would be like, how long did it last? How was your equanimity? The student would realise it didn't last very long and that they gave it undue importance. On some occasions the experiences would indicate a stage in the process, but being at higher stages wasn't the measure of 'progress'. 'Progress' was assessed by the stability of equanimity because the meditation is 'without craving nor aversion' toward the world (mind/matter). There are people at early stages of the process with incredible mindful stability, and there are 'advanced' practitioners who are still easily perturbed, there are advance meditators who don't understand it continue to chase experience and have not yet begun practice 'right meditation'.

The understanding in that JL posted and in my discription here should bring balance to the excitement over paranormal magical things and bring attention to the truth of 'how am I' right now. In that way, 'we observe with understanding'.

Gem, hello there. Like Janielee, you mention some very good points.

In that your "right meditation" is expanded to include how we are in the world at large -- our being and doing day-to-day, I completely agree.

Simple experience is fundamental, and I include in that the most elaborate forms of energy work, done for healing &/or meaningful insight -- often one and the same. These too are done simply in service of lovingkindness and equanimity, via healing and support and affirmation. But chasing experience for thrills or in order to feel good all the time is a form of addicition, which many would not want to acknowledge. And yet it is irrationally driving much of their lives, just like any addiction or its fear of want or lack.

There is a fundamental imbalance, lack, and disconnect at centre when the experience is chased or sought or craved at the expense of simply being and doing with lovingkindness and equanimity (the two of which I often call authentic love).

And that, as you've implied or subtly suggested, is directly tied to the lack of stillness at centre, and/or to the lack of focus on this in our doing and being.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

My point there was about methods. Methods assert self and person. In this present moment, I am aware of what is. I don't try to be aware, that brings in person. I don't seek any particular thing, that brings in person. I don't judge what it is, that brings in person. I don't conceptualize it or myself, that brings in person. I am just here now as a perceiver. Things arise, I am aware of them. Things that are present, I am aware of them. I'm am not adding content, I am just aware of content that is inherently here, or added by others. I myself add none. Thus, any practice, any method, if I entertain these, it introduces my content, my person, thus I no longer am as aware of what is inherently here as it is.


Being in the present moment without ANY interpretation, interpretation is ego and conditioning. There is nothing to do in this space, nothing. No matter how refined or subtle is the "method" bringing it into now brings in the person, the conditioning, the delusional self.

Yea we usually say 'no volition', which means 'without fabricating', or 'non-doing', but it involves full attention, so-called 'ardent with awareness' in Buddhist-speak.

There is nothing to do as a "doer" is me adding content, me adding an interpretation of what this is. I just am. I am awake, aware, paying attention. That is the starting point. The beginning of the journey. Find out how to get there. Let go of being somebody and something. Be nothing and nobody.

Really, you just start looking (as it already is) and seeking ends.

Selfless. Without achievement, without anything. Just here empty in harmony with all there is, as there is nothing to become between me and that. This or That is what I am, what is my experience, and not adding my own content, my own interpretation, the experience of that has changed. I see and experience it as it is in itself.

That is the essence of how meditation.

I look and see a snake and a dove, this exists and is perceived. One tries to bites me, one displays grace and beauty. I naturally avoid the snake, I naturally look long at the dove... I move though experience becoming less and less....and in this I become more. Then less of me I perceive, the more of not me I perceive. Awareness, understanding increases.

Sounds like refinement to me.

Originally Posted by Gem

The monk in the video seems to have a talent for conveying nuanced concepts in an understandable way. I would have to be unreasonably picky to criticise it... but hell I'm tempted teehee .

Amaro is in the lineage of the Thai Forest masters: https://tricycle.org/magazine/teachings-forest-masters/

His teacher is Luang Por Sumedho.

Luang Por Sumedho went back to England upon request of his teacher, Luang Por Chah.

There, he met a Roman Catholic who devoted acres of land to Luang Por, in a very nice part of England.

You are precise in your language and I like that I'm much more interested in the heart/content - does the person really know or are they just intellectualizing it (however talented that might be). Or are they are at that starting level - accurate as it is.

I don't really mind about language surface levels - some one might be the most eloquent (As Bodhidharma said, they could recite the whole Canon - backwards and front ways) and still if they have not realized, it's all useless when it comes to reality/life/people. Traditions also use different methods and language, channels, to guide students of different types. It's the subtle inner that is being guided, that is the most important, and I've not found a different result in that regard, if they are under genuine Buddhist traditions/teachers

I am not overly familiar with Ajahn Amaro's teachings but I respect that he has a great job to do and does it well. And with teachers as he has, I think it is something worthy of veneration and respect.

JL

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello there Janie,
I agree kindness is the key, that and balance.

And what you say about how a teacher or guide can help is so key. Anyone can fill the role for another, at any point on our journey. And we all need to be that for one another on our journey.

This is why it takes a community to support each of us on our journey, even though it's ours to walk. I think too often we forget about how important and how precious the many communities we move amongst are.

Peace & blessings
7L

Agreed, communities and Sanghas are important, but the overriding assumption in these forums (not with you), I have noticed, is that there is equivalency between novices and the inner Gnosis and realizations of a true teacher.

Thanks for your kind comments.

JL