Only One - not two

[sky]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

Quote: "One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta, often translated as no-self. This teaching is a stumbling block for two reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth? Second, it doesn't fit well with our own Judeo-Christian background, which assumes the existence of an eternal soul or self as a basic presupposition: If there's no self, what's the purpose of a spiritual life? Many books try to answer these questions, but if you look at the Pali canon — the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings — you won't find them addressed at all. In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible.

Thus the question should be put aside. To understand what his silence on this question says about the meaning of anatta, we first have to look at his teachings on how questions should be asked and answered, and how to interpret his answers."

To repeat: "the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../notself2.html

Buddha does teach of a ' True self ' in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, if he taught ' No self ' previously his last teaching would make no sense...
I understand 'Anatta ' to mean ' Not self '

[jimrich]

[directed to nobody in particular......]
LOL, is this now the new Buddha sub forum?
Carry on...........

[sky]

Originally Posted by jimrich

LOL, is this now the new Buddha sub forum?
Carry on...........

Well I will leave you to it then, have fun

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jimrich

jim: Looks like Buddha was adamant that no individual EXISTS!!!

No. He taught the middle way:

Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....015.than.html

Originally Posted by jimrich

LOL, is this now the new Buddha sub forum?

Well it was you who started to assert 'words of fhe Buddha' that actually cannot be found in authentic buddhist texts.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Ground

No. He taught the middle way:




Well it was you who started to assert 'words of fhe Buddha' that actually cannot be found in authentic buddhist texts.

Why do you think that the Samyutta Nikaya is not authentic ?

[Ground]

Originally Posted by sky123

Why do you think that the Samyutta Nikaya is not authentic ?

you want to imply that you found the source of his quote that the doer does not exist whereas deeds an events do exist? This was what he assigned to 'the budha' without being able to provide the source text.
If now you found the source text in the Samyutta Nikaya then please provide the specific sutta.

[no1wakesup]

Originally Posted by God-Like

There is not even one .

'One' is a mind evaluation made by me and you ..

Beyond me and you is not 'One' .

Non duality is a concept that is dual in nature .


x daz x

Yes and there it is.
Very well said

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jimrich

You mean arguing and mind games.

......LOL.

For myself, I try to practice non-engagement as a form of non-violence for both of those, wherever possible Can't always be employed, but it's a lifelong habit I've used around many toxic people, groups, and situations.

Where non-engagement is unavoidable or not ideal, then I find direct engagement and confrontation -- with true courtesy and all due respect -- is the best approach.

Otherwise most toxic groups and folks will seek a power-over approach that is demeaning and dehumanising to others. And if they proceed to act that way regardless, it is at least plain for all to see.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

Regardless of the answer you receive, words can never adequately encapsulate what is true or not for another.

The only reason we comment is to prevent or caution others from falling into the dualistic trap that understanding or the 'map' is the journey or the destination. Truth realized is entirely distinct from meanderings of the word, no matter how clever, elusive or 'quotable'.

The Spirit knows what is truth yet those not yet immersed in the wisdom of Spirit can only choose to replicate or imitate. There is nothing wrong with this imitation for all young imitate and play 'costume' before true growth. It's part of the journey. Likewise, all have a right to play for a long time if it is their wish.

But, no-one should mistake the outcome for the path, or the description of finality as the foregone conclusion for people who have no true guide or genuine knowledge of the inner path (gnosis, not "understanding"). No-one should imagine another's understanding, or even their own, substitutes for the Path and Wisdom and Outcome of Ancients like the Buddhas, Jesus, Sri Ramana, Rumi and Many others.

Shiningstars

First, Shining...I generally agree very much with most of your post, particularly the blue and purple bits.

But the red bit is much more complicated today than it appears at first blush. Even though it's certainly true that great depths of knowledge and understanding were transmitted through various gurus as well as through the spiritual apprenticeships of various faith/philosophical traditions spanning the last few astrological ages (mostly spanning the prior Ages of Taurus, Aries and then Pisces).

We have much to learn from the masters who spoke concretely and clearly regarding right-aligned living and being, as well as the path of equanimity (such as Buddha) on our journey to awakening to the heart-led consciousness. To the masters who clearly spoke the truth of the law (such as Jesus)...who called out repeatedly that under the law, lovingkindness and justice are One and cannot be separated (which his own Judaic law clearly stated but which was often ignored). He spoke not new words but cutting, clarifying words which called out the hypocrisy of the day, and of our day. He spoke the truth of the law, of the inherent equality of worth and humanity for all.

The latter in particular called for a true application of the law of his tradition...to authentically and truly practice the letter of the law under the equality and the universal, radical love that the spirit of the law demanded. To live authentically, with an awakened mind in service to a heart-led consciousness. The call to live in integrity and authenticity were purely insurrectionist and counterculture for his day and remain so in our day.

Clearly, in many ways we have yet to collectively accomplish what many of the masters attained vis-a-vis consciousness. And yet, in other ways, we have individually begun to move past some of the limitations of prior ages due to the collective progression of the human spirit. Certainly, this is true of most men and nearly all women who today participate in serious spiritual study and inner work. Because...most of humanity was illiterate, oppressed, and class- and caste-ridden. And because...half of humanity was not engaged at all, except perhaps on the fringes. Women were often barred outright in spiritual work due to deeply held beliefs in their "ingrained"
spiritual inferiority. And yet even the simplest and least educated women are quite often well or even vastly advanced in the ways of the awakened heart-consciousness.

This is the next tipping point...not just awakening the mind and raising awareness, but transforming the consciousness by consciously submitting the awakened mind in service to the heart-led consciousness. We are truly, and at every level, a different form of humanity at that point. And collectively, we will "shift" everything about our reality as we reach a critical mass...even if just a small one at first. The 100th monkey phenomenon is a crude parable for the reality of our interbeing, but perhaps it's fitting and humourous. But make no mistake, we will move forward and we will not be limited to the traditions of ages past where political and economic oppression, exploitation, slavery, caste, misogyny, racism, and so many other misalignments were givens and were tolerated or even condoned.

Out of all the past masters, the heart-led consciousness, the radical love and compassion, and the radical intellectual, moral, and ethical clarity of Jesus continues to outpace the lived reality of most of our individual and all of our societal expressions. To date. Ever. Anywhere. This is the illuminated way forward, IMO. And it's also true we have even regressed in the recent modern era (last 50 yrs) regarding the spiritual perception and lived practice of honouring women's full humanity, due to the near-universal prevalence of and addictions to casual sex and/or porn. Men today often regularly dishonour women in intent, thought, word, and deed with a depth and breadth that their fathers and grandfathers could barely even fathom.

Rumi and Buddha in particular are helpful references for both inspiration and for clear direction regarding right-aligned, balanced living whenever we lose sight of the illumined truth or way. But the vast majority of the masters will not define us or limit us as we progress upon our paths...we will meet and surpass many of them here and there, each in our various ways. And one day, perhaps even the way of Jesus and the heights of integrity and truth of being and doing will be the truth we live and the truth we are.

At that point, we will say en masse what more and more individuals have begun to say here and now..."and so now we are approaching...and so now we are here. And so now...we continue on...together"

[jimrich]

We might as well post the entire context of the quote that you posted:

Originally Posted by 7luminaries
...and that hopefully there won't be too many rounds of dialogue on here/not here .

Originally Posted by jimrich
You mean arguing and mind games.

[quote]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

......LOL.

Me too... .....LOL

-- with true courtesy and all due respect -- is the best approach.

This forum could sure use more courtesy and respect, IMO.

Otherwise most toxic groups and folks will seek a power-over approach that is demeaning and dehumanising to others. And if they proceed to act that way regardless, it is at least plain for all to see.

OK, but do you honestly think that disrespectful, contemptuous and power hungry, toxic Bullies give "rip" about what others think or feel so long as these toxic Bullies are getting their KICKS?
OMG, there's a verbal fight going on across the hall from here!!!!! Gees I hope they don't break down my door! Oh well, I have a weapon if they do!