The truth is that there is ultimte truth

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Ground

But let's leave it at that. I understand that from a doctrinal perspective absolute truth has to be necessarily posited.

So... it sounds as if you believe something along the lines of our being "spiritually free" and not beholden to archaic doctrinal perspectives regarding absolute truth. You keep referencing my "thesis error" without explaining your thesis. Is your intent to converse and share here, or is it to the thread with fuliginous comments about my being wrong about something or other while invalidating your humanness?

Originally Posted by ciel_perdu

Truth can be subjective, but it is also objective. Through knowledge and experience, we build upon the truth that we have known, and gain a greater understanding of truth, with the goal to move towards Ultimate Truth.

Yet, when it comes to spiritual matters, and in particular when it comes to spiritual issues that highlight a need for us to change, or alter our understanding/position, it becomes very convenient to make truth subjective, and to reject the objective. We end up saying things like ''well that's what you think'', or ''I see it differently''. And when we do this, we're on some very shaky spiritual ground, because we're actually fighting the truth, and that can end up in some very serious spiritual and psychological damage.

.

ciel_perdu,

Perhaps without realizing it you have, by your own words, affirmed that truth is largely subjective. To "alter our understanding/position" means to change our point of view. What we accept or perceive as being the truth is always subjective to our point of view. Truth only appears objective when its reality is affirmed by others......but it is necessary that they must share our point of view also. So, in effect, that itself makes it subjective to who is seeing it. The planet earth is a sphere but I have never perceived it as such. I am too close......I do not have the right point of view. Close up a rose is beautiful but further away it is indistinct....without any particular or observable beauty. The same for the earth.....far away it is sphere....close up it is/can be beautiful. All contingent, once again, on point of view.

The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:12 says...."For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known". Absolute truth...perfect understanding....is totally dependent on our point of view in this life. When we all share the same point of view(i.e. in the spiritual world) it is then that we can see objective/ultimate truth. We will not wonder if our perception is obscured by our point of view.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by Baile

So... it sounds as if you believe something along the lines of our being "spiritually free" and not beholden to archaic doctrinal perspectives regarding absolute truth.

Actually I am only interested in alleged 'truths' from a philosophical perspective.

Originally Posted by Baile

You keep referencing my "thesis error" without explaining your thesis.

your misunderstanding. you just have a thesis but no valid proof. That is why I simply reject your thesis and prefer mere convention instead since mere convention is sufficient for explanation.

Originally Posted by Baile

... Is your intent to converse and share here, or is it to the thread with fuliginous comments about my being wrong about something or other while invalidating your humanness?

No. Since I am human but do not accept as truth what you are positing as truth I am actually disproving your thesis through mere rejection of it.

you said "there are truths that guide all human life" and I reject this thesis. if you would say "there are conventions that guide many human lifes" I would accept this.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Ground

your misunderstanding. you just have a thesis but no valid proof.

So repeat-insult a third time, and that's it. Ignore List.

Originally Posted by Ground

Actually I am only interested in alleged 'truths' from a philosophical perspective.

you said "there are truths that guide all human life" and I reject this thesis. if you would say "there are conventions that guide many human lifes" I would accept this.

Ground,

This, of course, is a true statement. If all human life were guided by the belief that murder is wrong then there would simply be no murders. I cannot watch the evening news or read the newspaper on a daily basis without hearing reports of murders. We cannot even ascribe to the belief that all religions condemn murder. Murders of innocents are routinely applauded by adherents of different religions. The murders, themselves, can quote scripture and verse to justify these atrocities. 'All' is a problematic word to employ.

Originally Posted by Molearner

ciel_perdu,

Perhaps without realizing it you have, by your own words, affirmed that truth is largely subjective. To "alter our understanding/position" means to change our point of view. What we accept or perceive as being the truth is always subjective to our point of view. Truth only appears objective when its reality is affirmed by others......but it is necessary that they must share our point of view also. So, in effect, that itself makes it subjective to who is seeing it. The planet earth is a sphere but I have never perceived it as such. I am too close......I do not have the right point of view. Close up a rose is beautiful but further away it is indistinct....without any particular or observable beauty. The same for the earth.....far away it is sphere....close up it is/can be beautiful. All contingent, once again, on point of view.

The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:12 says...."For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known". Absolute truth...perfect understanding....is totally dependent on our point of view in this life. When we all share the same point of view(i.e. in the spiritual world) it is then that we can see objective/ultimate truth. We will not wonder if our perception is obscured by our point of view.

Hi Molearner,

Perhaps me saying truth is subjective isn't entirely correct. A cow for example is still a cow from 2 feet away to a thousand feet away. It's true the form/shape of the cow will change the further away you get, and so for the person a thousand feet away they will say it could be something else e.g a boulder (or something), and that's their subjective 'truth' (if you can even call it a truth). But regardless of how they perceive the cow, their perception doesn't alter the truth that it is a cow and not a boulder.

I don't think truth has to be dependent on us having 'seen' something for it to be true. ''Blessed are those who have not see and still believe''.

I'm also not convinced that we all need to share the same point of view in order to see objective/ultimate truth. I believe anyone can come into contact with Ultimate truth regardless if no one else can see that truth.

However, I do agree with you that when others also can see the truth that that becomes a source of encouragement for us. And I also believe that sincere seekers of Truth will be drawn together in that sincerity, and so I believe one day all sincere people will come to an acknowledgement of Truth and we will all live it out in our lives.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by ciel_perdu

Perhaps me saying truth is subjective isn't entirely correct. I believe one day all sincere people will come to an acknowledgement of Truth and we will all live it out in our lives.

ciel, there is subjective and objective truth. And there are absolute truths that guide all humankind. These are simple to understand realities of life, it's not complicated. And sincere people do acknowledge it, now. It's that we are at a turning point in our evolution where the individual ego would like to believe it is more clever and knows more than that which the world's philosophies have taught throughout the ages. This is but a passing phase in our collective evolution, the badly behaved adolescent phase one could say. When humankind matures to adulthood, these realities and truths will be understood once more.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Baile

ciel, there is subjective and objective truth. And there are absolute truths that guide all humankind. These are simple to understand realities of life, it's not complicated. And sincere people do acknowledge it, now. It's that we are at a turning point in our evolution where the individual ego would like to believe it is more clever and knows more than that which the world's philosophies have taught throughout the ages. This is but a passing phase in our collective evolution, the badly behaved adolescent phase one could say. When humankind matures to adulthood, these realities and truths will be understood once more.

Ultimately there is one Truth Baile. God is Truth.
This is about Spirit.

Jesus also said that the world hates Him because He testified that it's deeds are evil.
That it is evil.

Again, Paul also states we ought to redeem our time, "because the days thereof are evil."

So we can see how the Spirit and the material world are contrasted.