And Christ said "I Am The Lord" just as Satan did! - Page 5

#41 12-12-2011, 08:30 AM

I can understand why this belongs in the Judaism sub-forum... Yeshu was a Jew and since this is about him more than his teachings then this is a question about a Jew.

As stated above several times, The Satan is depicted very differently in Judaism. We don't have a concept of 'the fall'.

To answer your original question, anyone who claims to be God is both wrong and also committing an act of blasphemy. If Yeshu or The Satan said it then they would have been blasphemers. Additionally, anyone who claims another person is God (ie. most christians) is also a blasphemer.

If you would like to know more about this stipulation of Blasphemy i would like to direct your attention to the Rambam's Third Principle of Faith:

"I believe with perfect faith that God does not have a body. Physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all."

If you were to then ask 'but can't he be a part of God?' I would direct your attention to The Rambam's Second Principle of Faith:

"I believe with perfect faith that God is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our God - He Was, He Is, and He Will Be."

If you were to then ask 'but can't he be a son of God?' I would direct your attention back to the third principle of faith... if God is not a man, how can He have a son?

If you were to then say 'well it's metaphorical, it means he was created by God', then I would tell you that Yeshu had no reason to say that because it's obvious... Since sages don't make a habit of making words, either he was a blaspheming sage or a fool and either way you shouldn't listen to him.

RabbiO · #42 12-12-2011, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamah

I can understand why this belongs in the Judaism sub-forum... Yeshu was a Jew and since this is about him more than his teachings then this is a question about a Jew.

As stated above several times, The Satan is depicted very differently in Judaism. We don't have a concept of 'the fall'.

To answer your original question, anyone who claims to be God is both wrong and also committing an act of blasphemy. If Yeshu or The Satan said it then they would have been blasphemers. Additionally, anyone who claims another person is God (ie. most christians) is also a blasphemer.

If you would like to know more about this stipulation of Blasphemy i would like to direct your attention to the Rambam's Third Principle of Faith:

"I believe with perfect faith that God does not have a body. Physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all."

If you were to then ask 'but can't he be a part of God?' I would direct your attention to The Rambam's Second Principle of Faith:

"I believe with perfect faith that God is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our God - He Was, He Is, and He Will Be."

If you were to then ask 'but can't he be a son of God?' I would direct your attention back to the third principle of faith... if God is not a man, how can He have a son?

If you were to then say 'well it's metaphorical, it means he was created by God', then I would tell you that Yeshu had no reason to say that because it's obvious... Since sages don't make a habit of making words, either he was a blaspheming sage or a fool and either way you shouldn't listen to him.

Yamah,

If you and I believed in the claims of Christian scripture, we would be Christians -- but we do not and we are not.

If you and I believed in the claims of the Quran, we would be Muslims -- but we do not and we are not.

The fact that you and I are Jews, no matter any differences between us, says something about us, our religious path and where we stand regarding the religious paths of others. Acknowledging that religions have differences, significant at times, disagree sometimes on primary perceptions, does not necessarily entail trying to prove them wrong.

As for Jesus, there remains the problem of knowing what, if anything, he actually said in regard to being the son of G-d or G-d incarnate.

B'shalom,

Peter

#43 12-12-2011, 01:48 PM

RabbiO,

I acknowledge that you are a lot more accepting of other faiths than I am, and it brings me comfort to know that you are always there to present the other side of the issue. Thank you for being the Hillel to my Shammai.

RabbiO · #44 12-12-2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamah

RabbiO,

I acknowledge that you are a lot more accepting of other faiths than I am, and it brings me comfort to know that you are always there to present the other side of the issue. Thank you for being the Hillel to my Shammai.

And I in turn owe you my thanks for your willingness to share your wisdom and your perspectives. Remember, not in all disputations did Beit Hillel prevail over Beit Shammai.

B'shalom,

Peter

#45 12-12-2011, 05:23 PM

Beit Shammai was always right. So was Beit Hillel. We just follow Beit Hillel in the majority of cases because were we to follow Beit Shammai our heads would explode.

#46 25-01-2012, 03:09 AM

Perhaps Jesus had good intent being a human being and Satan had other plans to have people and angels worship him. Remember Jesus pointed that people should worship God. And he always spoke about him doing his Father's will. So he saw himself as the second person of the Godhead. I think that's what he was referring to whereas Lucifer was about lording it over people in a hateful manner toward humans and God.

psychoslice · #47 25-01-2012, 03:20 AM

Of course there is no such person as Satan, Satan is our ego, so if we declare that we are God from the ego's point of view, then that is Satan talking, but when we are coming from our inner Being, then that is the Christ talking.

Honza · #48 26-01-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truther

Perhaps Jesus had good intent being a human being and Satan had other plans to have people and angels worship him. Remember Jesus pointed that people should worship God. And he always spoke about him doing his Father's will. So he saw himself as the second person of the Godhead. I think that's what he was referring to whereas Lucifer was about lording it over people in a hateful manner toward humans and God.

I like this post. Thanks.

jalini · #49 26-01-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

And Christ said "I Am The Lord" just as Satan did!In a roundabout way Jesus Christ claimed himself to be God just as much as Satan did. Perhaps they are the same person?

What is the difference between Christ calling himself God and Satan calling himself God?

Are they not both comitting blasphemy?
__________________

Greetings, but DID the Christ say he was the Messiah/Lord?

The exchange between (I believe) Pilot and The Christ when he was being questioned.... They asked him, "are you the messiah?"

He responded.... "You say I am" Four simple words yes? But now look at them as I add emphasis:
"YOU say I am" (others may or may not)
"you SAY I am" (you say it but you do not Know it...your heart is veiled)
"you say I AM" (which is the same as the messiah...God said "I am that I am" yes?).
"you say I am" (why do you not accuse others? emphasis on the "I")

How you understand his reply varies with this understanding :) And the same would apply to Satan.

Blessings, jalini

Miss Hepburn · #50 26-01-2012, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truther

Remember Jesus pointed that people should worship God.
Exactly! Yes.
And he always spoke about him doing his Father's will. Yes!

So he saw himself as the second person of the Godhead. ?

Hi truther and welcome here,

Now, how do you figure that last sentence?
It didn't ring true to me, nor did it
seem like a logical progression from what you said before it.
Thanks