The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Eelco

Liar Liar pants on fire,,

With Love
Eelco

Originally Posted by naturesflow

lol. That made my night reading this.

I'd imagine it saved your life !!

.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Raziel

I'd imagine it saved your life !!

.

Try not to let your imagination run wild.

[Raziel]

...........

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by Eelco

so far I have not seen...even a hint of understanding... these observations....

Well I have understood them. Some really good insights.

Originally Posted by Rain95

Well I have understood them. Some really good insights.

Thank you.

With Love
Eelco

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by Gem

I strongly discourage anyone making a subject of anyone else. You should not be subject to any accusation, insinuation at all.

These two sentences contradict each other in my view. In the first one, you say to not make others (anyone) the subject of a statement. But then in your second sentence, you make those who make accusations and insinuations your subject, and they logically would be included in your "anyone" umbrella.

So to actually put your first sentence into action, no-one should be judged or "targeted" in anyway, even the people you may deem as bad. Of course this is not practical, the example of online bullying comes to mind. Sometimes it is right and good to make someone else the subject of an accusation or insinuation.

But then here we have the problem of all sides thinking they are right. This is why judges or authorities were invented. They have some kind of power to make a decision about who was right....and yes, they are not infallible and sometimes get it wrong.

The old saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all," is pretty good for avoiding conflict.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Rain95

These two sentences contradict each other in my view. In the first one, you say to not make others (anyone) the subject of a statement. But then in your second sentence, you make those who make accusations and insinuations your subject, and they logically would be included in your "anyone" umbrella.

So to actually put your first sentence into action, no-one should be judged or "targeted" in anyway, even the people you may deem as bad. Of course this is not practical, the example of online bullying comes to mind. Sometimes it is right and good to make someone else the subject of an accusation or insinuation.

But then here we have the problem of all sides thinking they are right. This is why judges or authorities were invented. They have some kind of power to make a decision about who was right....and yes, they are not infallible and sometimes get it wrong.

The old saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all," is pretty good for avoiding conflict.

You offer some good reflections. Here is mine in response.
The journey and conversation often brings people into an understanding of themselves, through many streams of conversation's and interactions. So being able to take a stand in many ways of how the world is being and behaving and reacting, also build courage and stamina to push through and overcome conflict, to really deepen the awareness from a surface level of reactiveness into a deeper more grounded assertiveness, has a process within itself that is unique to each person. As an example, someone suppressed and condemned all their life, may need reflections of an online bully or narcissist to face their inner warrior in some form to step up and let go of everything that creates this in their world. Build the deeper awareness in the process of the actual doing of itself. The world is full of reflections in everyway people need to empower themselves.


Many nice people, trying to maintain a surface level persona without deeper grounded boundaries, sometimes have shackles on that need loosening slowly and with practice in the real world.

Again I am speaking of streams within streams that play out as a whole life process in people. Of course I am not advocating domination and suppression over others, without intervention, but sometimes letting things play out can actually be supportive to others in process. Not always but sometimes it can be necessary to the deeper learning.

It reminds me of over fussy parents intervening in sibling fights and battles over and over. Yes they can play an important mediator role, to protect and ensure safety, but sometimes you have to let the siblings move through things and practice the mediation, otherwise they wont learn how to experience themselves as that. Experience is a good teacher to truly see yourself empowered and able.

The process of empowerment and safety, assertiveness and letting go of others as your source of pain and suffering, sometimes requires pain and suffering to be overcome of itself as an experience. As I see the online provision, even as it can be a very unsafe playing field for almost anyone, it can actually on the other side of the coin, can be a very safe playing field with distance between and the VOICE being able to express itself and overcome, empower and find itself, without the direct danger inflicting them. That 'space" between allows space to breath and take in, speak out and still feel safe in the comforts of their own abode. This can be a seen as a safe space to practice and experience oneself into deeper realization.


Many people who care too much and are always trying to do the "right" thing and be nice, can be faced with the some pretty contentious and bullying creatures on the other side of that undoing. To build boundaries and to realize being nice can be tarnished with conditioned responses not truly authentic in their approach, does require some deep digging into the self. To become aware of loving kindness aware and open to itself, as a deeper realization, that understands deeper the implications of itself doing the "right thing" and being the "nice person" can take some undoing and some very real life experiences and reflections to bring it into being.

Remembering that the world has many people learning through people, not the stillness and silence of a closed off meditative space.
The experiencer is actually facing themselves through the reflections of the world around them. So this is where the presence and process will come to life.

Supporting as a meditator with rules in place is a good thing, don't get me wrong. Its an essential part of keeping people safe and learning beyond the way the only may know. But sometimes rules and mediation requires people to practice, to become the life experience itself. Sometimes the life experience requires people to learn how to keep themselves safe and know what to do for themselves when alone in the world facing everything as it is.

If I am suddenly stranded alone and trapped somewhere in a life experience, where my life is in danger or another persons, I will only know what I am made of through my own process and belief in myself, my courage and stamina to push through, find a way, find another way if that one doesn't work, turn and go in another direction. I only have myself and my experience to weigh things up with. It is in through these times, we learn of what we are made of. The culmination of our process and life experience, that determines this kind of fighting spirit to overcome anything we might be faced with. And our VOICE is very much a part of this process.

Sometimes people wont be around to call the shots and be our support to tell others how they should be. Sometimes we have to ascertain the shots ourselves, do things our own way as things are to us in that experience. If the reflection is directed at us, you or your loved one, it can only be dealt with as it is, as things are, as each one is, as we understand and experience it for ourselves with what we have at any given time.

Of course their is always more, but the process to understand more, becomes a complex array of undoing at times. To build a more simple aware way of being and doing that is both empowering and life enhancing through the use of ONE'S VOICE.

Finding one's voice, is a big process of 'coming out', the listening and taking in, speaking up, being challenged, challenging, being confronted, confronting, understanding deeper the implications of others and itself through various interactive situations and experiences, its own loss and weakness, its empowerment and strength to overcome and be grounded strong. Sometimes the simplicity of knowing and being an empowered voice, that does know more of itself aware and open to itself, can learn through the many streams that do play out, or be reminded of their own loss, to truly ground itself aware of this process playing out as a more aware presence. This doesn't necessarily have submit others to what one knows, but move with them with the process you may know with realization of the importance of it all in it's coming out stages.

But again I am more a free spirit who moves with the streams as I see necessary to each situation. I don't hold myself fixated to points of my own process but prefer to move aware and open as things are. If my mind tells me this is "how" it "should" be, I contain myself and not open to the whole flow of my voice and ability to express and engage with others as I trust myself to be. If I am open, I can be aware and open, using my voice aware and open to what is. In this way, the potential of that shared space becomes what each one is able to be open too and I move more freely aware of the changing nature of the voice, its ability and what it houses within itself through this means.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Of course their is always more, but the process to understand more, becomes a complex array of undoing at times. To build a more simple aware way of being and doing that is both empowering and life enhancing through the use of ONE'S VOICE.

“God’s one and only voice are Silence.” ~ Herman Melville

The seeming dichotomy between part of your post and the quote in your signature conjured up some ideas in me. I'm really not sure "who" I am or which voice is "mine." Like when you say speaking up, yes I have done that. I'm just not sure that was me, the real me anyway. This ego me, yes it learned to speak up in way it didn't before. Yet the offenses taken were a product of my ego and my understanding of the world at the time. Now I feel taking offense was just a sign of identifying with my mind and not my self as it is unconditioned and free.

It's like what the Shaman said in a Castaneda book. He asked his apprentice if he would get mad if a bear took his stuff and he said of course not the bear was just acting according to his nature. So the Shaman said, it's the same with the people in your life you get mad at. There is no reason to get angry, they are just acting according to their nature. He said his apprentice should have the same attitude towards people he had towards the bear. To not make it about a "person" or to take offense.

Really there is no person. The "person" is habit and conditioning, the brain using memory and all of that to respond. None of that is conscious in any sense at all. None of it can be a person. Consciousness is in the mix, identifying with it, and creating experience within it.... but it is wholly a creation of this body and brain with consciousness riding along passively. Experience when consciousness is not identified with these things is very different. The "person" is very different. Consciousness has it's own balance and harmony and traits apart from the human mind.

“God’s one and only voice are Silence.” ~ Herman Melville

I would not use the word silence. It is louder than thunder and is un-describable in its power and magnificence. I've caught some very small glimpses of it and silence is not the right word to me. Glory, I dunno lol. Amazing.... Breathtaking. Expansive. Those kinda work.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Rain95

The seeming dichotomy between part of your post and the quote in your signature conjured up some ideas in me. I'm really not sure "who" I am or which voice is "mine." Like when you say speaking up, yes I have done that. I'm just not sure that was me, the real me anyway. This ego me, yes it learned to speak up in way it didn't before. Yet the offenses taken were a product of my ego and my understanding of the world at the time. Now I feel taking offense was just a sign of identifying with my mind and not my self as it is unconditioned and free.

There is 'you' as a whole process coming into an integrative deepening ongoing. Any reactivity is part of opening to your more authentic true self that is not controlled and reactive but open and clear. The unconditioned and freedom from all that, knows and feels itself more clear. It becomes more than just knowing, it feels 'right' and 'clear' from knowing its undoing and process to clarity aware of itself.

It's like what the Shaman said in a Castaneda book. He asked his apprentice if he would get mad if a bear took his stuff and he said of course not the bear was just acting according to his nature. So the Shaman said, it's the same with the people in your life you get mad at. There is no reason to get angry, they are just acting according to their nature. He said his apprentice should have the same attitude towards people he had towards the bear. To not make it about a "person" or to take offense.

People only know what they know, till they know more, its true. Your engagement with them in your knowing can be both non reactive and aware more clear in how to be both if you can be. How to speak and approach any situation of them in reaction. To me the stream of reactiveness coming in at you, is unique in response as each person is unique. The issue sometimes being that assertiveness and clarity when someone is still in reactiveness in themselves might determine you as being reactive, but in fact your showing them the face of their own reactions more clear. Unless you understand the deeper more subtle nuances in everyway of yourself in clarity, this can be difficult to ascertain reaction (thinking (the mind deciding) it is clear, speaking as such, but the silent space between the words, saying another thing) and a clear non reaction (feeling and knowing it is clear more aware of its own awareness through words and the silent space-aware of yourself aware deeper in this way)

Really there is no person. The "person" is habit and conditioning, the brain using memory and all of that to respond. None of that is conscious in any sense at all. None of it can be a person. Consciousness is in the mix, identifying with it, and creating experience within it.... but it is wholly a creation of this body and brain with consciousness riding along passively. Experience when consciousness is not identified with these things is very different. The "person" is very different. Consciousness has it's own balance and harmony and traits apart from the human mind.

Yes it is all association and reactiveness to something past, conditioned responses playing out most often and those patterns run very deep in the whole interconnected weave of this body we are in. I agree with you, experience when consciousness is not identified with all this, is very different. I move through this now more so and I liken this to my "Free spirited self" where by I feel like I am moving through all streams of myself aware and open, but free to be myself not contained. The balance in myself in feeling this way compared to the old way, is more clear, when I look and listen, feel and immerse into myself in this way, I can sense and feel a very different open experience that is more in harmony and balanced, I have my old self to compare myself too as well. I am aware of myself through the realization of myself aware, if that makes sense.

“God’s one and only voice are Silence.” ~ Herman Melville

I would not use the word silence. It is louder than thunder and is un-describable in its power and magnificence. I've caught some very small glimpses of it and silence is not the right word to me. Glory, I dunno lol. Amazing.... Breathtaking. Expansive. Those kinda work.

Sounds like a blissful kind of connection.
Imagine if you were God yourself and silence and all that loud thunder and power was god also.. I find it funny, how some times, we perceive god as separate to everything.

And if God is the voice of silence. Gosh imagine what might be in that voice if God is everything!

[Raziel]

Amazing how much tunes change when it suits within the spiritual conversation - my web must be large.

Unless you see the argument in its proper context there is a great potential for misunderstanding.

For some I just don't think it's possible - regarding certain aspects of life - since they have rejected them for either spiritual or everyday relationship orientated reasons.