Two types of spirituality

With the Santa example I exemplified the idea of there being experiences at one side and beliefs at the other.

Hmm.. I think you did a comparison with Santa at the age of 9 or so, as you said , but I highly doubt it was similar to what I was trying to do here.

The inside outside thing, I don't see the connection to what I am talking about.. But it might be true what you say.

Cynical.. I prefer the word sceptical.

The love thing I have no idea of..

Oneness is another idea I'm not sure about.. And Astral travel has not been in my interest.

The last wink: it means, in this case, I am saying something possibly provoking and the wink is to show it isn't to be taken too seriously although it can hold some truth. Nothing wrong being a good person.

Yeah, the point about the 9 year old memory and belief was unclear actually ...
I would describe that belief at that age(in the example of myself) as being without proper understanding, so your make-believe description would certainly apply to this as in a childish conception of belief. And so, it didn't take much to reject the bigger idea, once the smaller one was rejected.

For some other young people - assuming the belief had a foundation to it - it would have taken a more sophisticated reasoning (such as you outline in this discussion) to question it. And probably some years older also.

On the other hand I would not claim to be intelligent by what I wrote here. I enjoy the freedom and delusion, but also the creativity of lazy thinking, as most - if not all - of us here engage in.

Even if - or especially if - my thoughts had an academic level I would still be sure problems could be found in them. Here I make not much effort to be fully right.

Well, I found your statements to be thought-provoking, as I think I said earlier.

These are the reasons I discuss things too. I try to be as clear as I can - usually - in the hope that people would point out problems or things that are missing. Thoughts will never be finalized I don't think. It is a sign of life when there are always little pieces moving and changing.

[CrystalSong]

Originally Posted by DeepForest

By the way, isn't The Law of Attraction an abstract Santa Claus - if you are kind and not greedy this year you will get whatever you wish for ;-)

If you believe it is then certainly!

That thought line would mean that all people who believe they are good can manifest.

Some interesting numbers will now follow to muddle our thinking

* 99% of people in prison believe they are good people who may or may not have made a wrong decision.
* Most people who believe themselves good, who are practicers of a faith don't believe they were good enough down deep inside.

Since prisoners are still in prison and not many practicioners of a faith are aware they can actually manifest I have to conclude manifesting is not about 'thinking" or 'being good'.
It's something else.

Just stumbled upon this article describing one persons experiences and thoughts about kundalini

However, after reading the works of some of the sages, it is said that liberation doesn't depend on any prior experience but requires the letting go of all prior experience and knowledge, even your concept of God.

He is writing about it in relation to kundalini, and later states:

Purification is also a common requisite for liberation. The function of purification is to have mind/body that behaves in harmony with the soul. Usually this is shown by a natural expression of patience, compassion, willingness to change, non-attachment and a self-centered focus on the present. The physical body is also positively affected. The fact that kundalini has a purifying effect and can cause transcendental states means that it can be a powerful tool in aiding liberation. ... Cosmic consciousness may arise but this does not necessarily mean liberation although they are sometimes confused. Other abilities also arise from the gaining control of subtle energy which is used by some to raise kundalini. It seems that purification, transcendental states, enhanced physical and mental abilities, and virtuous behaviour are all things that precede liberation but do not necessarily cause liberation.

No idea what he means by liberation , but it sounds like what i am interested in. My idea is that imagination and belief can be constructed and used as tools to reach, in his words; "the letting go of all prior experience and knowledge".. the ideas - created on our own, or borrowed from spiritual teachings - are not holy or true in themselves. That is: when we think of the spiritual ideas we have, we are not experiencing any truth/enlightenment/liberation. We are just experiencing ideas, imagination, and beliefs, but we somehow act as if it is the goal of our lives to hold on to these beliefs and imaginations. We act to defend the ideas when someone tells they are false, and in defending and fighting (and loving) we forget what we are supposed to do - liberate ourselves from all we hold on to.

At one side we have belief and imagination we engage in, and at the other side we have experiences. Liberation is not to be found in belief and imaginations. Also: Liberation or enlightenment is not to be found in the (extravagant) experiences, or to say it in another way: the experiences are not the enlightenment or liberation, but the experiences can serve as tools for, or things that precede liberation, as he says.

(I personally am not interested in raising kundalini)

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by leafyish

I'm beginning to believe that some of the experiences are hypnosis. These people talk and talk at you, and their voices are in low hypnotic tones - have you noticed that? the ideas are implanted and later become experience. I watched the enlightenment video then encountered the same experience later on.

Hi leafyish, I've just read the thread and your post struck a chord with me. In fact I think it's very profound. I've observed this many times in myself and feel it is a very real part of spirituality that hasn't really been touched on. For me, most of my experiences coming from an 'idea' are internal and as already been mentioned, I don't know if they are real.
At this point I believe the only way to test reality is in 'two or more' sharing exactly the same experience from the exact same source.
Do you think the mind is capable of creating the nature of reality, be it true or false?