What if the crucifixtion...

I was raised in a traditional Christian environment, but as I have grown, I started to question all of the "myths" surrounding his birth and death. I started to ask myself questions like, "What if Mary wasn't a virgin, would that make his teachings less meaningful?"

For me, the answer was obvious. Whatever happened at his birth or death to "prove" he was the Christ doesn't change how he helped people and what he taught.

For me, accepting the symbolism of Jesus' self-sacrifice is to sacrifice the concept of a "perfect" man. It is to sacrifice the idea that we have to be flawless individuals. When we give-up that most precious illusion, we are left with the understanding that no one is perfect. This enables us to forgive ourselves and others; how can we hold a grudge for something that cannot be helped? It would be like choosing to be angry at the blind for not seeing.

This is not to say that we should use the "no one is perfect" idea as an excuse to harm people intentionally. That is a different matter entirely. I am just saying that so long as we try our best and accept ourselves and others -- mistakes and all -- that is what counts. That is true and perfect love, which I believe was his primary lesson.

To that end, it doesn't much matter if Jesus rose again or not. I do believe he rose, but I don't believe in him because of it.

[ROM]

Exactly, Raewynn. I think people expected Jesus to be some perfect being incapable of making mistakes, but it wasn't like that at all. He was a human being in a physical world which isn't perfect, therefore was subject to the exact same laws and mistakes as any other. He slept, ate, had colds, etc, just like anyone else.

His birth and death aren't important, it's what he did during his sojourn on earth that are. He died for Truth, because it can't be dimmed or diminished even by the most hateful individuals.

[Miss Hepburn]

Because Easter is in 2 days, this is an appropriate thread.
Easter, or "Christ risen" is the beginning of Christianity, I always thought.

But, really...he showed us how the physical laws in this 3rd Dimension are not the
Ultimate laws. There is a stronger law...I could call the 'Law of Belief'. (I made that up, I'm no
Abe-Hicks.)

If I had been told of all his "miracles" , the gift of the Comforter, his Ascension, and his teachings,
( I call instructions or clues to a happy life here) I would admire and love him as much...following his advice or instructions as much.

Is raising others from the dead, walking on water WITH Peter, healing EVERYONE that asked any more special than raising his body or spirit from his own "death"?
Not for me.

If a person believes in sin and that he died "for our sins"...he didn't "have" to then raise from his death, also....but he DID say he would...so I would have expected no less.

Did he not die? Did Arimathaeus' (or Arimathea's) plan an escape? Doesn't matter to me.

[Lightspirit]

If Jesus never died and rose again the people in his lifetime that saw it all and recorded it would have lived to be old instead of becoming martyrs for what they saw.

They would have disbanded and forgot about him like all the ones before him. They must have seen something fairly special to choose to die for it. Its for that reason I believe what they said is true.

[Riboflavin]

I don't know, that whole idea has always bothered me. If a man commits murder and a another innocent man takes on his punishment, how does that absolve the murderer of his crime? It makes no sense. No matter how much you punish an innocent for the crimes of the guilty I don't see how that would accomplish anything.

[Miss Hepburn]

Good point, Riboflavin...
However, if I had tagged along and seen all of his many works...
Then heard him speak the way he did...remember he raised others, healed from a distance,
Turned his body into pure light speaking to Elijah and Moses,fed thousands from near nothing, etc, etc.

Then, you didn't or don't have just belief...you have the Grace of the Holy Spirit...
The apostles had a complete turn around, as noted in Acts, after they received the
Holy Spirit.
They were transformed...I say bec of the Holy Spirit...of course, seeing Jesus after such a brutal trial all cleaned up except for his nail wounds, walking thru doors, etc...didn't hurt!!!
I admit.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Riboflavin

...I read the new testament and all jesus really said was "I die for your sins." but what if what he meant was "I die because of your sins."

I mean really.. If a man commits murder and a another innocent man takes on his punishment, how does that absolve the murderer of his crime? It makes no sense.

Now, where did he say, I die for your sins? I'm sorry, I don't recall that he said that.
Not saying he didn't.

Remember, the Jews believed if you killed a goat you appeased Jehovah.
Gotta always think of the times and culture.
(Thousands of yrs they believed this!)

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by innerlight

Was the end of it? What if Jesus was crucified on the cross, died, and that was it. What if he never rose from the dead. He never ascended the way we have been told he did.

Would that still change your view on Jesus. Would he of not been whom you seem him to be today?

Everyone spiritual or religious doubts their beliefs at times I imagine. That's what faith is about, not knowing but believing anyway. If you knew Jesus did or didn't rise from the dead it wouldn't be a faith in the first place, and would have an entirely different type of effect.

[Riboflavin]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Now, where did he say, I die for your sins? I'm sorry, I don't recall that he said that.
Not saying he didn't.

Remember, the Jews believed if you killed a goat you appeased Jehovah.
Gotta always think of the times and culture.
(Thousands of yrs they believed this!)

I don't remember where he said that which is why i deleted it from my post. It's been awhile since i read the bible. I was probably thinking of something one of the apostles said. Your right though about the sacrificing, but IMO the concept of sacrificing stuff to appease god doesn't make sense itself.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Riboflavin

,... but IMO the concept of sacrificing stuff to appease god itself
doesn't make sense.

Don't get me started on blood sacrifices!!


...Or a wrathful God or blaming "Him" for any tragedy or disaster that befalls
The people in the Old Test!!