Tradition and the resistance to change.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Yes they probabley did have a party. Understandably people do not want to also be abused and leave challengers, perhaps only one, to do the work on there own, hoping they will be successful but not prepared to share the burden themselves. and at the same time critisise them for giving up.

There is a saying; "haters gonna hate" and there's nothing much you can DO about it, but change the way you react TO it.

So, in your case, it becomes 'damned if you do and damned if you do not' but either way, you are damned, so why not go out in a 'blaze of glory' instead of meekly creeping back into your little hole and dying there?

For everything I have said so far, you have made an excuse about how that doesn't apply to you in some way or another...and if you are unsuccessful in obtaining moderation, try again...and again until they stand up and take notice, but you also have to obey the rules yourself and be beyond reproach for that to happen.

You say that people don't want to be abused...but if you were really following the path of Advaita, you'd see how that doesn't matter...abuse is only the flip-side of appreciation (duality) and once you have given up letting EITHER affect you, remaining calmly detached from it, you'll begin to live your path.

If people abuse me now, I'm always like "thanks for your OPINION irrespective of the TRUTH...anybody have anything else to say on the matter?" and then, you'll become like me, a person whose posts go basically un-noticed for the most part because I refuse to play their little games and they know they can't have their fun with me....it does get a tad boring after a while, with me thinking "I may as well write a book instead"...but ah well, that's what you're dealing with.

[Shivani Devi]

One more thing in regards..

If you are to be the 'sole crusader' for a cause, you really need to live by example, moreso than ever!

In my case, I can see the 'whole picture' and not just tiny parts of it, for I have experienced the "Oneness".

For instance, you don't worry about all the people that are 'here and now' but you worry about all those who may become.

Even though I'm not very good at 'empathetic understanding', my logic and deduction makes up for it.

For instance, somebody...some person may call NA a 'cult' or they may abuse the philosophy or even abuse you...and the way you react to this, shows how far you have progressed. You are setting an 'example' for all the newbies and new-comers to Advaita...to this forum.

Some of the newbies may even be interested in NA, but if they see your reaction as a representative of the philosophy, they may have other ideas or even change their minds...so you are shooting the horse before even putting it in the race.

Do you know how much I would love for another Aghori or Tantrika to be on SF so we can have a 'deep and meaningful'? I have been waiting for that, ever since I joined here, but after 2 years, I realise that it ain't gonna happen...yeah, I would also like some 'back up' but then again, I am not out to convince anybody of my own views...not even myself...I just wanted some kind of 'intellectual understanding' but realised I'd only get that in real life...maybe at a Shiva temple...at the Theosophical Society...but NOT on a 'Spiritual Forum'...so I just shrugged my shoulders and went 'ah well, so be it'.

Think about what another would be thinking when they read your posts...they will think you are portraying the 'victim' to your own philosophy...they will think you are acting like a 'spiritual martyr' or a 'scapegoat' to garner sympathy to foster your own agenda...and that doesn't cut it here, or anywhere.

You need to believe what you do and say what you say, feeling totally comfortable within your own 'spiritual skin' and then drop it.

To test your belief and resolves, it always helps to superficially agree with them, saying "yeah, you're right" even though you do the opposite...many people cannot do this, but those with a titanium backside can.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

There is a saying; "haters gonna hate" and there's nothing much you can DO about it, but change the way you react TO it.

So, in your case, it becomes 'damned if you do and damned if you do not' but either way, you are damned, so why not go out in a 'blaze of glory' instead of meekly creeping back into your little hole and dying there?

For everything I have said so far, you have made an excuse about how that doesn't apply to you in some way or another...and if you are unsuccessful in obtaining moderation, try again...and again until they stand up and take notice, but you also have to obey the rules yourself and be beyond reproach for that to happen.

You say that people don't want to be abused...but if you were really following the path of Advaita, you'd see how that doesn't matter...abuse is only the flip-side of appreciation (duality) and once you have given up letting EITHER affect you, remaining calmly detached from it, you'll begin to live your path.

If people abuse me now, I'm always like "thanks for your OPINION irrespective of the TRUTH...anybody have anything else to say on the matter?" and then, you'll become like me, a person whose posts go basically un-noticed for the most part because I refuse to play their little games and they know they can't have their fun with me....it does get a tad boring after a while, with me thinking "I may as well write a book instead"...but ah well, that's what you're dealing with.

None of it matters in terms of disconnection because Oneness arises as all. Why things arise as they do can be discussed. One idea about that is that duality arises and is held in perfect balance on the infinate scale which balance may not be apparant 'locally':) So it is never why are things like they are but it is always how it must be for that balance to be maintained. This of course includes ourseles and the choices we make. This is the origin of the NA claim that there is no-one so no volition even though it looks like us choosing and acting. Its another way of saying all choice and action is One/Brahman choosing and acting rather than separate looking people.

Are you familiar with anything like that balance in your tradition? I would be interested to know.

When you say stuff like "but if you were really following the path of Advaita" you are speaking about your path of TA as you see it. NA has no path to follow cause there is nowhere to get, already no distance between seeker and sought. Whatever state you are already in is Oneness manifest. Connection to Oneness cannot be increased for it is already total.

For some that is enough for realization which they define as the end of feeling disconnected from Oneness. For others that is not enough and so be it. Let them follow thier paths and practises and good luck to them. Let each resonate with what suits them. There is no need for some to get abusive because practise is regarded as unnessary by some.

Lets see how it goes in terms of enough people getting fed up with abuse. I'm not taking it on by myself if others are not concerned enough. Let them have thier forum poisoned by abuse if they are not bothered. I will discuss with you and others like you who do not feel threatened by NA to align us with criminals and madness:)

[iamthat]

"They know what they are doing. When they shouted "Judas" at Bob Dylan they wanted to stop him performing with The Band. Although he turned up the volume and continued, he was affected by it and did not go on tour again for many years."

This is completely tangential, but for the sake of accuracy:

The reaction to Bob Dylan playing an electric guitar on stage originally occurred at the Newport Folk Festival in 1965. However, there are those who were present who claim the the booing was because there was only time for a very short set.

When playing in Manchester in May 1966 a member of the audience shouted out "Judas" because Dylan seemed to have abandoned his folk roots. Two individuals claim to have been the person who shouted "Judas". Bob Dylan finished that tour.

In July 1966 Dylan had a motorcycle accident, as a result of which he cancelled all further engagements for that year, and did not tour again until 1974. Dylan himself later said that he had been worn out by five years of touring plus the use of various substances, and the crash offered an opportunity to withdraw from public activity.

Nothing to do with the discussion of Oneness (or perhaps just another manifestation of Oneness)!

Peace.

[Shivani Devi]

I really tried here...but I give up. *sigh*

You're way too stubborn.

Good luck

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by iamthat

"They know what they are doing. When they shouted "Judas" at Bob Dylan they wanted to stop him performing with The Band. Although he turned up the volume and continued, he was affected by it and did not go on tour again for many years."

This is completely tangential, but for the sake of accuracy:

The reaction to Bob Dylan playing an electric guitar on stage originally occurred at the Newport Folk Festival in 1965. However, there are those who were present who claim the the booing was because there was only time for a very short set.

When playing in Manchester in May 1966 a member of the audience shouted out "Judas" because Dylan seemed to have abandoned his folk roots. Two individuals claim to have been the person who shouted "Judas". Bob Dylan finished that tour.

In July 1966 Dylan had a motorcycle accident, as a result of which he cancelled all further engagements for that year, and did not tour again until 1974. Dylan himself later said that he had been worn out by five years of touring plus the use of various substances, and the crash offered an opportunity to withdraw from public activity.

Nothing to do with the discussion of Oneness (or perhaps just another manifestation of Oneness)!

Peace.

What it does have to do with is the abusive resistance of traditionalists to change. That is the sense in which the reference was made and in that context is relates very well to the abusive resistance of TA to NA.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I really tried here...but I give up. *sigh*

You're way too stubborn.

Good luck

To stubborn for what? To agree with TA rather than NA?

Comparison does not require agreement

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Iamit

To stubborn for what? To agree with TA rather than NA?

Comparison does not require agreement

Nope I don't want you to agree with me (I couldn't care less, really)...I was only trying to get you to be a little more open minded in regards to ALL that is, not to just what you THINK that is...but you kept on going round and round in circles which told me "nope, leave him in the oven to stew for longer...he ain't done with his whole 'poor me' act yet".

[Shivani Devi]

Okay, so I shall present another hypothetical here, in a way you may understand it.

So, you are NA, I get that, I appreciate that.

and so...you follow your path of NA for many years...30, 40 even 50 years and achieve a level of awareness of "oneness" a direct realisation of your teachings...they serve you well and you are comfortable knowing what you do.

Then after all this time, some 'new wave' of philosophical writers come about and say "hey, ya know, all of that NA stuff is too 'traditional' now...it is false...it is bunkum and you should totally forget all that and follow this whole "new and improved path" even though you cannot see what is actually "new and improved" about it...

What would you do? continue to follow the path of NA, or change to NNA because you are 'adapting', 'progressing' 'keeping up with the times" etc?

Just a thought.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Okay, so I shall present another hypothetical here, in a way you may understand it.

So, you are NA, I get that, I appreciate that.

and so...you follow your path of NA for many years...30, 40 even 50 years and achieve a level of awareness of "oneness" a direct realisation of your teachings...they serve you well and you are comfortable knowing what you do.

Then after all this time, some 'new wave' of philosophical writers come about and say "hey, ya know, all of that NA stuff is too 'traditional' now...it is false...it is bunkum and you should totally forget all that and follow this whole "new and improved path" even though you cannot see what is actually "new and improved" about it...

What would you do? continue to follow the path of NA, or change to NNA because you are 'adapting', 'progressing' 'keeping up with the times" etc?

Just a thought.

Yes one would be in the difficult position you describe if one believed they had discovered truth. Because there may be something hidden that may come to light that contradicts it.

As I have said elsewhere, requiring that the solution to the search MUST be the truth is an impossible barrier for the seeker to overcome for the reasons you describe.

Once the idea that one can know the truth is left behind (transcended) by the seeker then the problem you raise disappears and yet another barrier in the way of the seeker is removed. For a graphic example of this see Soren Kierkegaarde "The parable of the Highwayman"