Integrate or Renounce .

Originally Posted by God-Like

Just counter quoting for a moment here and will get back to your main post later when I have more time ..

Just done a little research on raziel as I had the connection during healing work last night and I thought this quote is perhaps apt in regards to integrating spirituality in the physical ..

The angel Raziel also taught Adam the knowledge of the power of speech, the power of thoughts and the power of a person's soul within the confines of the physical body and this physical world, basically teaching the knowledge with which one can harmonize physical and spiritual existence in this physical world.



x daz x

I personally don't see any difference between the two, I don't label this part of my Life Spiritual and another not or mundane.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

For me,spiritual is more the way I view life then in how I identify myself.

It is an aspect of my make up. It opens my mind to be aware and notice the interactions and connections on some levels.

Can also feel and experience on the physical as well. Which leads my awareness that Spirit flows through it all and does not require or distinguish one as more important then the other. Suppose for the individual it may be what serves or deemed important.

Perhaps when not holding onto a side or identity in regards to I am this may be bonkers. That is if one is looking for sides to choose.

Hi Moonglow

I was given an exit point a few years ago, it was my choice whether to 'stay' or 'go'. Obviously I chose to stay, but that to me means 'job done', Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations fulfilled and I've never really seen myself as a Spiritual person. Those 'up there' are proud of me and that's what counts. With that in mind I have to rethink the whole concept of what is Spiritual and what is not and get my head way out of the box. I've also been a practicing medium and although I don't do it as much nowadays I still have the occasional 'contact'. What I sometimes find is that the experiences we have in this existence - call them Spiritual or not - have a difference in Spirit.

I'm aware that this is going off the beaten track and is turning into a Spirituality-bashing session.

Sometimes holding onto our identity keeps us sane because it's the consciousness equivalent of having our feet on the floor. Sometimes we don't like what someone else has posted in these forums and it makes us cringe inwardly, what would it be like if there were no dividing lines between our consciousness and theirs?

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Zackley ..

This is why there is the realisation that all is Self .

From what I can gather is that after realisation one can for whatever reason go two ways ...

One is integrating all that is, that is Self or one can hold onto the Self that is beyond the denser / manifest / matter of Self and renounce it .

There doesn't seem to be any middle ground, it's one or the other ..

What I said to Moonie was when you are of the body you are of the body, when your not, your not ..

This really does cater for specific contexts .

To mix context by referring to Self un manifest while experiencing Self as matter / manifest is cross dressing contexts and platforms .

It doesn't work .



x daz x

Hey there Dazzer ...so what do you personally think on those who are, as you say, of the body but choose to disassociate themselves from the reality of their own interbeing? Not momentarily to re-centre but as a long term way of orienting and of choosing to disassociate?

What do you personally think on those who choose to deny the body and the foundational material aspects of their existence, which in fact are simply the denser aspects of what we call spirit and are NOT somehow inherently bad, evil, or "different" than the more ethereal aspects?

IMO...it simply means they are not yet ready for the next step on their own journey, where they are present to their own interbeing in its fullness...with the discipline and fortitude needed for that task. No matter whether they are looked on as gurus by some or not, LOL In time, they too will take that next step on their journey...we all do.

(BTW...I thought you also might appreciate post #58 where I posted some info whilst addressing Greenslade, regarding the concrete connection between our perceptions of spirit, or spiritual truths, and our own interbeing, as reflected in our own physical body, animated by the divine spark and permeated by consciousness. Just another example from the grounded perspective of traditional medicine, of how it certainly does seem difficult, as you say, to deny the body whilst of the body, as some are prone to do.)

Peace & blessings
7L

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi Moonglow

I was given an exit point a few years ago, it was my choice whether to 'stay' or 'go'. Obviously I chose to stay, but that to me means 'job done', Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations fulfilled and I've never really seen myself as a Spiritual person. Those 'up there' are proud of me and that's what counts. With that in mind I have to rethink the whole concept of what is Spiritual and what is not and get my head way out of the box. I've also been a practicing medium and although I don't do it as much nowadays I still have the occasional 'contact'. What I sometimes find is that the experiences we have in this existence - call them Spiritual or not - have a difference in Spirit.

I'm aware that this is going off the beaten track and is turning into a Spirituality-bashing session.

Sometimes holding onto our identity keeps us sane because it's the consciousness equivalent of having our feet on the floor. Sometimes we don't like what someone else has posted in these forums and it makes us cringe inwardly, what would it be like if there were no dividing lines between our consciousness and theirs?

Hi Greenslade,

These thoughts brings back to me that Life is the Spiritual journey.
The individual is reflected with in these forums and the interactions that take on and off here.

I don't go around saying I am spiritual. But aspects and awareness that my being is more then just this guy are intergrated with in my consciousness. The energy sensed by others and myself indicates something more flows between us.
So it is just there. Spirit rides right along.

Not to go off track here. So, will tie it together somewhat, as I see it at present.
I can't renounce myself for no matter where I go (you got it) there I am.

OK, being a little silly here, but the point is, what is realized and heightens my awareness comes back to this individual. Whether it furthers develops the self or inspire another, suppose, that is the choice given.

Thank you

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there Dazzer ...so what do you personally think on those who are, as you say, of the body but choose to disassociate themselves from the reality of their own interbeing? Not momentarily to re-centre but as a long term way of orienting and of choosing to disassociate?

What do you personally think on those who choose to deny the body and the foundational material aspects of their existence, which in fact are simply the denser aspects of what we call spirit and are NOT somehow inherently bad, evil, or "different" than the more ethereal aspects?

IMO...it simply means they are not yet ready for the next step on their own journey, where they are present to their own interbeing in its fullness...with the discipline and fortitude needed for that task. No matter whether they are looked on as gurus by some or not, LOL In time, they too will take that next step on their journey...we all do.

(BTW...I thought you also might appreciate post #58 where I posted some info whilst addressing Greenslade, regarding the concrete connection between our perceptions of spirit, or spiritual truths, and our own interbeing, as reflected in our own physical body, animated by the divine spark and permeated by consciousness. Just another example from the grounded perspective of traditional medicine, of how it certainly does seem difficult, as you say, to deny the body whilst of the body, as some are prone to do.)

Peace & blessings
7L

Well it's an interesting hypothesis to address, in my eyes there is something not quite fitting with those that suggest that the earthly-worldly-body-form experience is not real and yet carry on regardless as if it is .

If you really didn't believe whole heartedly that the mind-body experience is real then one could quite easily live life as if it wasn't . One could perhaps end it in some way or one could no longer play ball .

They don't, they instead live life as if it is holds substance, some saying that one might as well enjoy the bodily pleasures while they are here . Nisargadatta Mahara as well documented was addicted to smoking even though he passed it off as a body thing and that had nothing to do with the real Self .

I understand that suggestion and I agree with that from within a certain context, but the real Self that is not of form has no mind-reference-thought-reflection of what a body is or what smoking is or what addictions are, so from the context of Self manifest of the body one can only integrate or renounce what they are from that point of view / perspective .

Why succumb to the pleasures of the flesh when you know that nothing is real? There has to be an attachment to the bodily pleasures in order to be swayed to partake in them . To renounce the bodily desires on one hand and be influenced by them on the other doesn't make sense to me . It's not living true to one's beliefs .

All view points / perspectives are only entertained through an intellectual process that is reflected upon I AM this / that, not This / That .

They are not an absolute Truths they are just reflections of how they perceive themselves of the mind-body compared to realizing what they are beyond it .

You can either go two ways once one has the comparison, one can integrate everything as I AM or renounce everything in reflection of that .

Why one deviates one way while another goes another way is anyones guess, but it's interesting how after the same realization there can be an opposite understanding of what the realization stands for in relation to one's life experience thereafter .

I AM the tree, I AM the sun, I AM everything, ..... or none of it's real ..

Both impressions / reflections are correct based upon one's current point of perception .

One's immediate knowings, truths, understandings can only be processed at such a point .


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Well it's an interesting hypothesis to address, in my eyes there is something not quite fitting with those that suggest that the earthly-worldly-body-form experience is not real and yet carry on regardless as if it is .

If you really didn't believe whole heartedly that the mind-body experience is real then one could quite easily live life as if it wasn't . One could perhaps end it in some way or one could no longer play ball .

They don't, they instead live life as if it is holds substance, some saying that one might as well enjoy the bodily pleasures while they are here . Nisargadatta Mahara as well documented was addicted to smoking even though he passed it off as a body thing and that had nothing to do with the real Self .


I understand that suggestion and I agree with that from within a certain context, but the real Self that is not of form has no mind-reference-thought-reflection of what a body is or what smoking is or what addictions are, so from the context of Self manifest of the body one can only integrate or renounce what they are from that point of view / perspective .

Why succumb to the pleasures of the flesh when you know that nothing is real?

There has to be an attachment to the bodily pleasures in order to be swayed to partake in them .

To renounce the bodily desires on one hand and be influenced by them on the other doesn't make sense to me . It's not living true to one's beliefs .

All view points / perspectives are only entertained through an intellectual process that is reflected upon I AM this / that, not This / That .

They are not an absolute Truths they are just reflections of how they perceive themselves of the mind-body compared to realizing what they are beyond it .

You can either go two ways once one has the comparison, one can integrate everything as I AM or renounce everything in reflection of that .

Why one deviates one way while another goes another way is anyones guess, but it's interesting how after the same realization there can be an opposite understanding of what the realization stands for in relation to one's life experience thereafter .

I AM the tree, I AM the sun, I AM everything, ..... or none of it's real ..

Both impressions / reflections are correct based upon one's current point of perception .

One's immediate knowings, truths, understandings can only be processed at such a point .


x daz x

Hahahaha.......LOL!

So true and great example, LOL....

Well...IMO...this gets back to what we've both said about where they are on their journey.

To be honest, the artificial detachment or artificial perception of spirit as "separate" from the body is itself one of the greatest of all obstructions.
Many of those same gurus...Buddha etc...have said it. The greatest illusion is the illusion of separation, and for the individuated, incarnated being, it holds most true here. Even more so than perceiving our connection to others, which for most at least has some concrete reality (i.e. we have friends & fam, we go to work, etc).

But for the addictions, or the excesses or deficiencies of the body...for the imbalances of our lifestyles and our choices taken...these ALL reflect imbalances, iniquities, and unhealed wounds of the spirit. Everything emanates into the physical. Some are taken on as challenges, such as many bodily or mental deficiencies or weaknesses. And the lion's share of the rest come through as emotional and spiritual challenges, challenges of character, including predisposition to addictions. Men are particularly challenged here, with pervasive vulnerabilities regarding addictions to sex and porn and a vastly greater predisposition to addictions of violence and bloodlust.

Thus when anyone (and for discussion's sake a male guru like N.) talks of detaching from the physical and his addictions and behaviours have no bearing on who he is at core...frankly, they're missing the entire point and by an ongoing, repeated, conscious decision apparently.

It would be pitiful, in fact, in its limitation, except when viewed through the generous and expansive eye of compassion, where we see N and many others are simply not there yet. For all their other gifts and insights, they at present lack the resources and fortitude to confront this pervasive and deeply ingrained tendency or craving. It's simply where they are. At another point on the journey, N would be prepared to take on the addiction, to wrestle with it, and to search more deeply for what it means for him personally are why he's self-medicating. Perhaps to share his experiences at a 12-step meeting for the benefit of self and others ;)

And for those of us living in the real world, confronting our demons and struggling with them honestly and courageously...good on all of us I have recently had some spiritual test of my greatest weakness and come to find out my struggles have done me some good But in the real world, we need to be honest...I didn't do it all on my own. I have support and friends on the journey, and they are precious and important too...as is their support. Another reason that the illusion of separation will only take one so far, hahaha!

We may not realize it, but we build an indescribable spiritual strength down here on the ground. For ourselves and in our support of one another.
So power to the people

Peace & blessings Dazzer
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

To be honest, the artificial detachment or artificial perception of spirit as "separate" from the body is itself one of the greatest of all obstructions.
Many of those same gurus...Buddha etc...have said it. The greatest illusion is the illusion of separation, and for the individuated, incarnated being, it holds most true here.

7L

Yes, I believe unless one is completely delusional then there is potentially some kind of artificial reflection going on . It's for some rather do as I say rather than do as I do lol .

I am not on a witch hunt regarding supposed masters who claim this and claim that, but there are holes in many of their expressions / actions that don't add up nor reflect a bliss bunny detached kinda soul ..

Your right in my eyes regarding separation and this is why I have never resonated with the neti neti approach where one weeds out the falsities and the illusory traits .

Why would anyone entertain neti neti unless one has read about the real Self somewhere?

This is potentially what Ron Hubbard was on about when doing his life review from the world of spirit .

His mission if you can call it that was to draw people into his paradigm so that at one point they would think for themselves rather than follow his teachings .

In some way that is what niz said and that was to put his book down and find it out for yourself .. although he continued to have further books published lol .

When I had Osho turn up and I said in another thread about his rolls royce collection, I also read that when the poop hit the fan and he went into isolation he rarely spoke to the public, instead he buried himself in studying the scriptures / doctrines ..

I am kinda thinking to my self, why would a Self realized man who teaches about Self and spirituality and all that jazz need to spend time studying spirituality?

I haven't studied Self, consciousness at all . Why would one need to?

I think this is where certain problemo's come from and that is similar to the same problemo's for those that study the bible or any religious doctrines . What happens is that there is to a degree brainwashing occurring if they believe what is written . I wonder how many masters or christians or whatever would say what they say if they had never read the bible or referred to spiritual doctrines past down over the centuries .


x daz x

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello there Greenslade, how's stuff?

Just to say first off...I have never been one to renounce EXCEPT strategically as needed, where that brings balance in integration...like (e.g.,) starving the wolf of sadism re: torture. Purge the dross in the forge. Starve that b*stard and don't think twice about it, LOL...and no worries, as it'll forge ye backbones of tempered steel. But as for discipline, whilst the lion's share of valour, it too must know moderation...there is a special integration there, in which the strong channel is broadened without being corrupted, weakened, or compromised.

I also appreciate your mention of integration not an amalgam or amorphous stew of different parts, but the integration of difference in the alchemical sense where the all is transformational within you, each in its own way and time.

Hi there 7L

To be honest there's been a huge shift in my consciousness going on of late, and while it's perplexing the hell out of me to the point of distraction it's also a voyage of discovery. My Spirituality has always been pragmatic, if I can't apply it to 'real Life' then it's not much good because then it's just a theory. I tend to come across things that will inspire me and they're usually very short and simple, but they sow the seeds. Like the question of "What is the Spirituality of sitting on the toilet?" While it's easily dismissed as laddish humour it's packed full of self-awareness. Something else that caught my attention was 'the stream of consciousness', which appealed to my more poetic and imaginative side. It has been a stream of consciousness, it feels like a stream and everything that passes is flotsam and jetsam riding on the ripples. Memories of the 'contact' with the flotsam and jetsam remain, those small sparks that it's lit inside. The rest though is carried by the current.

Everything has something to tell us, even the swallow can teach you that your consciousness has its limitations.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Here's what came to my mind, and it very concretely speaks to the relevance and primacy of the denser material aspects of our existence (matter), which cannot be separated from the ethereal or spiritual aspects (consciousness). The illusion IMO is that somehow they can actually be separated, LOL...simply because we wish it or want it to go away, or prefer not to deal with what may be seen as the often sordid realities of our existence.

What came to my mind is that the trinity you mention is encapsulated in the Triple Burner of the three organ-energy systems that regulate life (embodied consciousness). As the name designates, the sanjiao (Triple Burner) is a fire-energy/yang organ. We literally embody the trinity within, according to this ancient healing and diagnostic tradition. The fire of original chi or qi is what Western mystics call the divine spark, which emanates into the physical realm and animates the body.

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?...&hsimp=yhs-004

Peace and blessings
7L

That particular nail needs painkillers I think - "prefer not to deal with." Integrate or renounce indeed.

OK, your Triple Burner has pushed my buttons and I need a little time to read and digest, so thank you for that. Interesting.

Originally Posted by God-Like

Like said a little way back regarding self identifications and self reflections / references, we just can't help associating with everything while we are in experience of this mindful world . Even in meditation one can still associate that they are identifying with peacefulness instead of noise and they will still reflect upon what they are associating themselves with in reflection of the peace and the noise .

Of course at a point it's possible to go beyond the associations .

So when you ask what are the reasons for why we either integrate or renounce it will be because of how we perceive ourselves .

Everything is reflected in regards to how we perceive ourselves .

If you renounce God then you do so in reflection of how you perceive yourself .

One has to acknowledge what they renounce or integrate .

If you think of magnets and their opposite poles attracting and repelling then it's kinda like that with our own alignment .

When an individual is self destructing to a point of no return one pushes away help from others ..

It's a natural expression based upon how they perceive themselves in the moment .


x daz x

Everything is individuality, identification with that individuality and perception of self and others from there. To be honest I think we'd become unhinged if it were otherwise, not super-Spiritual. We can become attached to and identify with the concept of no-Self/self.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi Greenslade,

These thoughts brings back to me that Life is the Spiritual journey.
The individual is reflected with in these forums and the interactions that take on and off here.

I don't go around saying I am spiritual. But aspects and awareness that my being is more then just this guy are intergrated with in my consciousness. The energy sensed by others and myself indicates something more flows between us.
So it is just there. Spirit rides right along.

Not to go off track here. So, will tie it together somewhat, as I see it at present.
I can't renounce myself for no matter where I go (you got it) there I am.

OK, being a little silly here, but the point is, what is realized and heightens my awareness comes back to this individual. Whether it furthers develops the self or inspire another, suppose, that is the choice given.

Thank you

Words create worlds, Moonglow. Who or what is this "just this guy?"

I don't say I'm Spiritual any more because I want to get my head out of that particular box, but then the box is what I perceive to be Spiritual or not. When All That Is is Spiritual, what then? When being "just that guy", sensing energies, being 'infectious' or inspirational.... All of those are aspects of who and what we are. And more. Did you know that it's easier to describe a black hole than is it to describe how a human comes to a decision?

Just think, we came from Spirit and we're here. When we pop our clogs we'll go back up there, no work needed. Nature is doing the work, not us and when you think about it that little thought changes everything.