Natural vs. Man Made

[Gem]

A lot goes on life. Things happen and have to be attended to. It has to be organised. That all falls apart if it is just left alone. One's life has to be maintained.

This isn't a spiritual thing. The words are useless as a learned knowledge, but within them is a meaning. If it means something, then it it changes something, and is not an addition to memory, but a chance to look a tiny bit more deeply. This the very essence of my writing, which leads my mind into the further reaches of itself. As yet I know not where it goes.

I don't know knowledge or answers. Do not believe the word. And since I'm no spiritual wonderlight, there is no reason whatsoever to believe any of it.

Isn't that what a conversation is, to go deeply into subjects? To be deeply psychological? Not in any psycho-analytical way, to make some kind assessment or 'want to help', but in a way that is deeply engaged and captured in pure interest, and curiosity, to understand what is really meant.

In my life talking deeply is quite rare. There is a social game which is about self impressionism, and I find sincerity to be quite rare. Things seem quite measured - certain things are taboo - there's judgement afoot as every word is watched, not only consciously, but in a hesitant controlled way. It's as though the words themselves project the self imagery that may well be judged. There are some clear exceptions to this. Some individuals are so forthright that I am taken aback.

Please know. This is a thought unwinding and I am not reflected in it. Once this passage ends, it has gone forever.

Do you why water is symbolic? Why they use the ocean as a metaphor? Why the snowflake is meaningful? Why a river meanders instead of making a bee line for the sea? I claim, because with its reflective surface being the first reflection, before the advent of glass or steel, Mans' image was reflected in pools. Throughout the entirety of evolution itself, the eye has only ever seen itself in watery reflections. Water, thine eyes are my own. Water both survives life and reveals that which gives you sight. As the very essence of life itself, is reflected in mind's own gnosis.

[Gem]

I Continue, because man made things have been touched on, just the surface, regarding the 'taught techniques', which imply knowledge, which implies power, and the institutionalisation of that in the tradition. I claim that to follow thus is mere obedience, and therefore, inherently untruthful. That's OK in the social world with its manners and banal rules etc. - but in essence, at its core, it is utterly destructive. As we can see, that principle of adherence to what Man has created in his history of culture and tradition, is division, conflict and the destruction of eco-systems.

In spiritualism, there is complete truthfulness without compromise, and come what may, in every way, it's truthful. It calls into question all these ways one fakes it to make it, and is ruthless - and it can undermine everything and bring the hard life issues. One example. A friend of mine was in a loveless marriage, a very convenient one, polite enough and with responsibility of children - and is a fearful thing to wonder how to survive without all that involved in the partnership - but life's short, I guess, and to be true to oneself can uproot them completely, and also be very distressing to the others around. I think what struck me in her story, is, one has no obligation to another from whom they are independent, and they may suffer greatly just because you are true to self. It will bring the whole house of cards tumbling down for any person whom has built one. Am I conveying some propensity of this?

This truthfulness comes first - The entire life is examined, and untruths are put to death. Otherwise you're just wasting time with some pitiful platitude of a technique.

It's the most serious, and most difficult, this meditation business, because we're not messing about with the soft cozy spiritual ego anymore - which is man made - that has to go. This is to know yourself with the insight that starts on your skin surface, goes through the entirety of the psyche, and peers into the very outpouring awareness. There is no method or rhyme or reason to the thing. There is no organised way to be sincere, and no technique to being truthful - these are natural things.

[peteyzen]

I both agree and disagree with you gem. All your points as always are very well made. And I agree that some people use `knowledge ` of meditating techniques as a means to a form of power through that knowledge. and yes there is an institusionalisation that is created from that. This is what happens when the human ego gets involved in something which is actually about the destruction of the ego. Having said all of that, for those learning to meditate there ARE genuine safe techniques that are very easy, which will help people to take control of their minds in meditation much more swiftly. For most people to step into meditation and try to `figure it out` themselves will waste a lot of time and will be led down many dead ends. There are good teachers out there who have valid techniques that are taught for nothing. My advice would be look at what a teacher is asking for, because if its a lot of money then they are undoubtedly not very far along.
I think there very much is a method and rhyme and reason to meditation. We are all at different stages in it though. My practice has been greatly enhanced by good teachers. Just as if you want to learn any new thing the path is made easier if good guidance is given.

[adamkade]

Originally Posted by Gem

I was just thinking how I derailed my last thread by dismissing tradition, which I do dismiss, but I'm not against practice methods per-se, because they have been shown to be good for people's health. The reason I dismiss them is I want to talk about the deeper aspects of meditation.

Considering there are 1001 practice methods, and they all go by the name of meditation, it follows that meditation itself is not any method in particular. We even find methods directly contradict each other, so we if we look at that from a pure standpoint of reason we can see that method is not actually meditation.

I often go walking in the bush, and also along the highway, and there are very different vibes going on. The former is not organised purposely for reasons, but it is still extraordinarily highly ordered where everything in it and it's whole movement is precise. The latter is also highly organised, but the vibe from it is chaotic, the movement isn't at all graceful, and when I walk along there in the morning, the rushing, the noise and the aggression is distinctly palpable to me.

How can I apply this metaphor to a practice where the former is wonderful in the fact that it is, and the latter is constructed for intents and purposes of humanity? with this imagery I claim that meditation does not serve the intents and purposes of man's desires, but a method of meditation necessarily does.

There is so much said already, and I feel like elaborating on these aspects, symbolically speaking, how ultimately, nature is sole provider for Man, yet being intrinsically unsatisfied, Man, with desires other than what is, makes these metaphorical highways, which thereafter need to be maintained, and thus he becomes enslaved to this artifice manifest of desire.

I now take it back to what is already there prior to the making of 'highways'. That is, the very existence of conscious awareness and the very essence of acknowledgement - where at that instant of noticing... that's it.

I think to take a subject to the next level, and in this case the subject is meditation one has to define it.

I think true meditation is about the transformation of self. I often meditate but I consider there to be many different meditations. I have formed my own from the ideas of others. It depends on what is trying to be achieved.

Perhaps all meditation is about altering the perceptions of reality, as well as the perceptions of self. I consider some meditations to be passively active. For example, the breathing meditation is the best all rounder type meditation. It has so many uses. It useful for over all health, and also increases mental acuity. If practiced frequently it can be used anywhere, at any time. I consider this to be a passively active meditation.

However, whilst stretching the body, the breathing meditation can be used.
It is the one meditation which I have found to be useful to merging with other types of mediation.

There is also the "looking inbetween meditation" This is a mental practice that I have picked up when I was a child, and it never really left me. It is hard to explain. You look beyond the object that you are staring at. Or you think beyond the subject matter. It is a place where you put your mind.

It is a good practice for trying to see the truth of something. I also use chakra meditations which can be thought of as imagination meditations, or visualization meditations. Many meduims use these meditations. They can be useful. The imagination is a powerful thing. The first step to create something is to image yourself doing it.

I try to incorporate meditations into everything I do. I have had some success at this. But with the Chaos of the world it is hard to accomplish. I once meditated and there was a guy riding is motorcycle up and down the street. It was so distracting. I realised that the more I tried to push the sound away the more it stayed. So instead, at first I focused my mind on it. This was a terrible idea. Not effective at all. So then I tried to find the place where there was a motor cycle and when it disappeared. I tried to place my mind in the place between the hearing the fading sound of it, and the returning sound of it.

This worked wonderfully. I got the point when I wanted the sound to come back. I heard cars. So I started doing the same process with cars, and then voices.

Often I able to "slip upward" it is a strange feeling. I am not saying that I am actually coming out of my body. But when I am in a group meditation I am able to shift my consciousness to a different place. When I am in this different place I am more aware of what is going around me. i.e, the sound of people breathing, the sound of my heart. I think it is a widening of my perception, as opposed to narrowing it. I am also able to feel energy and other people's thoughts, if their thoughts are open. I can also sometimes feel what others feel.

It becomes extremely interesting when I come out of such meditations and a part of me is still detached. I am both here and there. I find this way of being really lovely, and try to remain in that state of mind as often as I can. When I write my mind slips into this way of thinking,

I hope that this helps in some way.

Adam.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by adamkade

I think to take a subject to the next level, and in this case the subject is meditation one has to define it.

I think true meditation is about the transformation of self. I often meditate but I consider there to be many different meditations. I have formed my own from the ideas of others. It depends on what is trying to be achieved.

Perhaps all meditation is about altering the perceptions of reality, as well as the perceptions of self. I consider some meditations to be passively active. For example, the breathing meditation is the best all rounder type meditation. It has so many uses. It useful for over all health, and also increases mental acuity. If practiced frequently it can be used anywhere, at any time. I consider this to be a passively active meditation.

However, whilst stretching the body, the breathing meditation can be used.
It is the one meditation which I have found to be useful to merging with other types of mediation.

There is also the "looking inbetween meditation" This is a mental practice that I have picked up when I was a child, and it never really left me. It is hard to explain. You look beyond the object that you are staring at. Or you think beyond the subject matter. It is a place where you put your mind.

It is a good practice for trying to see the truth of something. I also use chakra meditations which can be thought of as imagination meditations, or visualization meditations. Many meduims use these meditations. They can be useful. The imagination is a powerful thing. The first step to create something is to image yourself doing it.

I try to incorporate meditations into everything I do. I have had some success at this. But with the Chaos of the world it is hard to accomplish. I once meditated and there was a guy riding is motorcycle up and down the street. It was so distracting. I realised that the more I tried to push the sound away the more it stayed. So instead, at first I focused my mind on it. This was a terrible idea. Not effective at all. So then I tried to find the place where there was a motor cycle and when it disappeared. I tried to place my mind in the place between the hearing the fading sound of it, and the returning sound of it.

This worked wonderfully. I got the point when I wanted the sound to come back. I heard cars. So I started doing the same process with cars, and then voices.

Often I able to "slip upward" it is a strange feeling. I am not saying that I am actually coming out of my body. But when I am in a group meditation I am able to shift my consciousness to a different place. When I am in this different place I am more aware of what is going around me. i.e, the sound of people breathing, the sound of my heart. I think it is a widening of my perception, as opposed to narrowing it. I am also able to feel energy and other people's thoughts, if their thoughts are open. I can also sometimes feel what others feel.

It becomes extremely interesting when I come out of such meditations and a part of me is still detached. I am both here and there. I find this way of being really lovely, and try to remain in that state of mind as often as I can. When I write my mind slips into this way of thinking,

I hope that this helps in some way.

Adam.

Firstly, don't hope and don't try to help. Please. This is undermining everything. There are no secondary notions or means to hoped ends. Should benefit occur then good, we can be pleased about that for a few seconds at least, then it's gone. If I am being viewed as a figure, someone who needs help/wants help or what have you, then this becomes all about self imagery. I already explained that I am NOT reflected in these words. I think the philosopher, Michel Foucault, expressed this well when he said, "I say what I think precisely because I don't think it anymore". Are you reflected as a 'helper' in the words you use? I listen to what is said and respond from the fibrbre of my own sensation. Said sensation is so momentatry, and it never recurs. There is no remnant that can be helped or hoped for.

Seeing the truth of something isn't a practice. I can't come here and explain to you and others how that's done. No one can. If one sees a 'truth of something' and then they remember it as 'something that's true', they no longer see the truth of the thing.

There is this practice method and that practice method, and fine, you practice a method and it produces something. I can chant 'guns and roses' all night and it takes me somewhere. Indeed practice a method, but with the understanding the meditation isn't a method. It didn't begin because you sat on the mat and it didn't end when you got up.

The story of the motorbike is excellent and articulates it so well! I mean, there is a motorbike in the linguistic sense, but not in the experiencial sense. Just yesterday while sitting at the station with the heat of the desert wind blowing across my body and through my hair, the passing traffic was but the crescendo and fade in the space of closed eyes. I didn't have to concentrate or control or any of that stuff. There was no 'motorbike' to be experienced, just like you say. Well said. (This is also what I mean when I say these words don't reflect a 'Gem'.)

Yea - when you write and it slips - this is how I'm writing.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by peteyzen

I both agree and disagree with you gem. All your points as always are very well made. And I agree that some people use `knowledge ` of meditating techniques as a means to a form of power through that knowledge. and yes there is an institusionalisation that is created from that. This is what happens when the human ego gets involved in something which is actually about the destruction of the ego. Having said all of that, for those learning to meditate there ARE genuine safe techniques that are very easy, which will help people to take control of their minds in meditation much more swiftly. For most people to step into meditation and try to `figure it out` themselves will waste a lot of time and will be led down many dead ends. There are good teachers out there who have valid techniques that are taught for nothing. My advice would be look at what a teacher is asking for, because if its a lot of money then they are undoubtedly not very far along.
I think there very much is a method and rhyme and reason to meditation. We are all at different stages in it though. My practice has been greatly enhanced by good teachers. Just as if you want to learn any new thing the path is made easier if good guidance is given.

Ok - if you agree, then you believe what I say, and if you disagree, you believe something else. We have to get past that, because as I said, there is nothing here that can be taken home; there is only a meaning. If we understand it meaningfully, then some small change occurs, which is tangible, and not intellectual or retrospective.

There is no difference between meditation and participation in this thread, so what has been said has already occurred and is gone, while the present attention is here with this. I have no notions at all about what I said yesterday, yet maintain the critical importance of truthfulness, not as a philosophy about it, but being actually truthful right now. There is no space for untruth, and any moment it arises it is seen immediately as a fraud.

In regards to having control over the mind - this is nothing other than being aware, in each moment, of what is done/thought and otherwise transpires. It isn't a discipline involving a method that controls it. We find that the mind is perfectly peaceful while it wanders around anyway. We could say, It creates what interests it and is naturally attentive to it. Did you know that in primary schools, the two main behaviours that are deemed 'problematic' are inattention and impulsiveness. This is now called 'attention deficit disorder' and 'hyperactivity disorder'. Since these are both indicative of intuitive inspiration, they usually go together and deemed to be 'ADHD'. The child is happly wandering around the mind and being impulsive in action. The child doesn't experience a problem at all. These 'mental illnesses' usually aren't even noticed until the child starts school. The institution demands obedience - without obedience it can't last even a day. Said child only experiences a problem when the adults force their control - and then the child enters a great conflict between doing as inspired to do, or conforming to the rote of grade one. The adults have a problem with the child and so they try to control it, and the institution churns out half dead, disciplined minds, which are highly skilled and and utilisable, yet docile, set in rigour, unquestioningly obedient and can't function without some authoritative regime. I.e - can not, for fear, think for themselves and only repeat the things they read and were told. In summary, unhappy adults impose control upon the thought childs that have already transpired. That endeavour is futile and harmful.

I understand that guidance is always beneficial, but it is a very particular, intricate and delicate thing. Most teachers are only following the rote of their particular traditions. They already know what to say, and have said the same thing many times before, however, that building of trust where people can discuss as equals is where the 'exploration together' takes place. It's highly sensitive to what's going on, has no past references - and nothing that relieves one from the necessity of their own self trust.

The ego seems to me to be a very abstract term, so I question, what is it that is actually observable which indicates an ego? Surely this has to be a behaviour of some kind, a belief perhaps, or is it just the way we self reference using 'me, my, I or mine'? It's a good inquiry into what those words refer to. Though I don't what people mean by 'ego', I understand it to be the nidus of human suffering. I don't mean physical pain and difficult experience by this; I mean the mental reactivity of psychological, personal distress. I suggest, to be acutely aware of the primary source of this self generated and unnecessary agony is probably one of the most essential facets of the meditation.

I claim, there is nothing to figure out. A person is already aware and also knows what it is to be aware of the movements of thoughts, and aware of the body, and aware of of the entire activity as it happens. What is there to control? For example a person is out of control with anger - it's out of control and it can't be controlled - there's no point saying 'control it'. That is a technique that suppresses it for now, but the psychological tendency for rage, or for control for that matter, is going by unnoticed. Said person has to be acutely aware to that. Not through a regimen of training, but by complete truthfulness in acknowledging the entire issue, in this instant and in every instant.

I know the teachers are going to say that training is required to develop that level of attention, and as usual, I contradict that outright. That attention is already. The issue is, people are seeking something that is not actually here in this instant. A solution which need be gotten, perhaps, and thus, by seeking forward with that agitation, they can not look at and be with what really is happening here. We have to stop seeking something. This instant, stop chasing the spiritual rainbow and be here with 'this' as it is right now. The mind is clear and perceptive. Without the distraction of the vain hopes that traditions have brainwashed people with; with that obedience, and that reliance; with all that desire for false promises; that seeking for 'what has been told of' - the attention will remain immediately present. Even see, the 'thought of enlightenment' is absolutely clear to us. Do not seek what is not here and this conscious awareness remains here. - As Amakade pointed out, there is the sound coming and going, but there is no 'motorcycle' to be found.

That being said, when person has no teaching as a crutch, it's probable he'll feel a troublesome sense of uncertainty, as there is this unknown, and nothing hold on to to relieve it. When a person has nothing to go by, they are absolutely compelled to look with intense immediacy - and sitting there unknowingly leaves every ounce of the attention free to notice what does occur.

This is an anecdote, or even an experiment, if you will. One sits perfectly still, forgetting completely all that stuff about breath and mantra and what have you, and instead of entering into the safe comfort of 'what they know about meditation' (which is memorised), do absolutely nothing. No method and no controlling at all. Close the eyes, don't move a hair, and see what ends up occurring. When something happens, sensation, sound perhaps, whatever it is, isn't that happening perfectly clearly?

[Light Seeker]

My apologies for the delay in getting back to you gem , I rarely find the time to visit these forums.

My meaning was. If something natural begets a thing , then by dint of progression the fruits of that natural thing must alway be natural too. irrespective of how un natural it may seem to any eyes. That is to say that Man made things are by course of their natural origin ( Humans) also natural progressions/productions...All things find their source in the materials to hand , those base materials are alwys natural, they cannot be any other. for good or ill.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Light Seeker

My apologies for the delay in getting back to you gem , I rarely find the time to visit these forums.

My meaning was. If something natural begets a thing , then by dint of progression the fruits of that natural thing must alway be natural too. irrespective of how un natural it may seem to any eyes. That is to say that Man made things are by course of their natural origin ( Humans) also natural progressions/productions...All things find their source in the materials to hand , those base materials are alwys natural, they cannot be any other. for good or ill.

If a being, a human race, destroys the ecology for the purposes of dominion, power and greed, then something is awry. The entire psychological condition is in error and enacted ungracefully. Even at a purely logical level, we can see, something is gravely amiss.

In the natural world, the deep forest, things have their place, and a harmonious balance is struck so that life itself can continue for millions and millions of years, and not only last, but flourish and diversify.

With the intervention of Man, things are not flourishing and diversifying. Half of all species are extinct, the fresh water is polluted with toxins, entire landmasses are stripped of forest, and the ecology itself is in a dire state.

The divide, the difference, the disparity, between man's psychology and the natural operation of nature is obvious. The vain ideologies of dominion, control, consume and amass are directly related to desire, craving and abject greed. On the counter to these, the antipathy, despair and outright hatred is also expressed.

At the centre of these core elements of human suffering is a paltry egomaniac squirming about in misery wreaking havoc on himself, those around him, and nature at large. His mind frame, and the natural world, are just not compatible. His worldview, therefore, is in error. This is basically because he does not see things 'as it is', but rather, projects upon it what he 'wants it to be'.

Even from that completely selfish, self serving position it can be seen, where the Man's happiness is reliant on his acquisition and control, he enters into folly. Obviously, being this inane and this destructive and hurting each other, not under some silly spiritual spiel like 'they not what they do', but with full knowledge and complete clarity - and with clear intent - on purpose.

Lets not justify and make excuses so that we can pretend this is natural, and face the truth of how degenerate and perverse it really is.

[GreenGazer]

Originally Posted by Gem

This is basically because he does not see things 'as it is', but rather, projects upon it what he 'wants it to be'.

This is the folly of man. Believing the next generation will surely get it right. That it is not a broken system but a broken generation. Where, in my reality, broken systems produce broken generations.

[Gem]

Maybe people would prefer it if I said something like, "I had this vision, please tell me what it means." Then we could help and have answers. We could keep it nice. Then we could pretend that Man asserting himself as Other than nature, is natural. That psychological division erupts in conflict and anguish because one part of the mind is pretending that it has dominion over the rest. That Man, the split off section called 'me', does whatever is necessary to preserve himself, no matter what it is, even if it destroys the mind, just as it destroys nature.

The Man made world is a psychic realm - it's a story and a discourse about the mind - but to look and see for yourself what is there, without any story at all, is meditation. It's to see what is nature. Man's nature, and nature herself. To notice what it is. Not hope that one day... if I practice bla bla.. but this instant, and as we go along, see what actually happens to be.

If that feels a little uncertain, as the mind reaches for something somewhat concrete, good, because it means we can see the way in which the mind is grasping. That's insight. We can not see what's going on if we're holding the things bygone, hoping for what we will become, and maintaining spiritual self images. When people approach me with a spiritual image, I notice myself constructing my own spiritual image - I immediately notice is a pretense, I see it for what it is, it holds no interest then, and it desists.

The act of trying to become Other than you are now is the fragmented part of the mind striving to dominate the other part. From this psychic condition manifests the division between Man and his mind, and hence, The disparity between Man and nature.

I question, what if the mind was a whole movement at once? There was no Other exercising control, and the entire universe's motion was not Other than the motion of the mind? What if it was one motion, and there was no Other (Man) being moved by it?

Please observe while I speak. If you think the truth will be known in the future, can it be seen how that notion is imaginary? That you thought that thing, and perhaps believed it's true? Maybe you don't believe it. I claim the truth isn't Other than it. The Fact is, it's a thought. That's what it is. That is the truth.

Everyone will agree or disagree with me, I know that. But a moment ago I just pointed out that it isn't agree and disagree; believe and don't believe. Do we know directly, these are thoughts? I'm speaking from a living place here - and see what it is. This is a meditation, after all.