Why Are We Even Here?

Originally Posted by shivatar

God doesn't want nor does God desire enlightened souls/ascended souls.

God wants to enjoy a good show. And what good show doesn't have a challenge before a victory?

The subterfuge builds the show, makes it more delicious.

We are not seprate from the universe, from the experience of joy, but we are not immortal either, like joy is not immortal.

I think peoples problem is they want to have infinite glory. They want to say "look, I helped God acheive it's master plan! I want everlasting life, I deserve it!". Then they want to be gifted what they desire. How many times in life have you gotten what you wanted and it was exaclty as fulfilling as you wanted it?


Life is a never ending cycle. God is a never ending consumption of joy. Of the universe as it is.

There is no reason in this. We must simply learn to enjoy the portion of the universe that has been granted to us.

So it's not cosmic masturbation - it's God the eternal sofa slug, hanging out for a good never-ending flick.

Interesting.

[Seawolf]

We don't even know who we are much less why we're here. When they say everything you need is in you, I think it's referring to the human body, and there's no separation between the infinite and the physical. The body probably has most answers that we need, if we can get in touch with ourselves.

[Shivani Devi]

This explains it better than I ever could:
https://www.secretenergy.com/videos/...consciousness/

[Busby]

I hope relinquish will excuse me for pasting this post of his - but it really is the best thing I have ever read on SFs


Life Itself


In truth, the universe is nothing other than the single, seamless process of 'change' itself. It is seamless because it does not actually contain any 'solely self-inclusive forms'. In other words, the universal process of 'change' does not actually contain any separate 'things' or 'events'.

Any given 'particular thing' (for example, a 'tree') is always in a constant state of change, which is to say that 'the tree' is in fact a 'process' rather than a 'thing'. This process can ONLY be occurring if the necessary conditions are present. These conditions are 'not the tree', and are naturally comprised of 'other processes', ALL of which can ONLY be occurring if the necessary conditions are present. These conditions are 'not those other processes', and are naturally comprised of 'other other processes', ALL of which can ONLY be occurring if the necessary conditions are present, and so on, ad infinitum.

Therefore, 'the tree' could not possibly be occurring in exactly the way that it is without the ENTIRETY of 'not the tree' (i.e. the rest of the universe) occuring in exactly the way that it is. In this way, 'the tree' naturally includes within it's own existence the entirety of the rest of the universe. Exactly the same is true of ALL 'particular processes', including 'Me' and 'Not Me' (and 'You' and 'Not You').

As such, the fundamental distinctions between all the different processes do not actually exist, and so, the only process of 'change' that is ACTUALLY occurring is that of the entire universe as one seamless whole.

It gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that (being 'finite') it is the inseperable opposite of the causeless presence that is the Eternal Infinity itself, the nature of which is ever-changless, formless and perfectly symmetrical.

The only COHERENT ever-changing asymmetry is a 'FRACTAL' ever-changing asymmetry.

ALL apparent 'things' and 'events' are as they are simply because they are all 'parts' of this one eternally cyclic process.

Evidently, there are (at least for the moment) certain 'organic' parts of the process that are conscious of themselves and of their surroundings. This basic fact indicates that the universe is actually a (or rather, THE) Living Organism, naturally possessing a countless number of 'nerve ends' at all the appropriate points of it's 'body' (which are commonly known as 'life forms').

This, in turn, indicates that the causeless presence of the Eternal Infinity is actually none other than Life Itself.

Some of the nerve ends of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these extremely complex nerve ends (a.k.a. intelligent body/mind life-forms) that they are the separate, autonomous originators of their own particular movements.

As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.

In this resting, there can be no suffering...

Thanks for reading.

Peace

:)

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by shivatar

Hello davidsun. It's nice to see you again

Likewise, Bro.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Kioma

Another question is; If God is all powerful, and wants ascended souls, then why doesn't S/He just whip them up as needed and enjoy? Why the subterfuge? Why create an entire physicality and have this great charade?

We've heard some answers, but as discussed some are more satisfactory than others. ...

GIGO! which means Garbage in => Garbage out; i.e. Dungball question => Dungball answers.

It strikes me, yoru would do well to amend your idea of God.

'God' is really 'THAT Which IS' (the only thing, i.e. everything!).

IT is 'all powerful' because IT is the 'Force' in everything. IOW IT is literally (not figuratively!) omnipotent, i.e it is not 'all powerful' as in "an almighty 'king'" (or 'queen') who has 'power' over everyone 'in' the kingdom he (or she) personally rules - or as in 'you' when you 'play' the "If 'I' was the king of the world, 'I' would XYZ" wish-game in 'your' head.

It is Souls - the Life-Force gestalts 'in' everything - that naturally desire to 'expand', i.e. to 'grow' to fulfill more of their potential, 'develop' etc. The old idea of 'heaven' being 'up' ('above' our 'earth-plane) is what lead people to interpret such desire as a desire to 'ascend'.

Balloon pop! Wake 'up'. There are really no such thangs as 'up' or 'down' when it comes to spiritual realities!

Originally Posted by davidsun

GIGO! which means Garbage in => Garbage out; i.e. Dungball question => Dungball answers.

It strikes me, yoru would do well to amend your idea of God.

'God' is really 'THAT Which IS' (the only thing, i.e. everything!).

IT is 'all powerful' because IT is the 'Force' in everything. IOW IT is literally (not figuratively!) omnipotent, i.e it is not 'all powerful' as in "an almighty 'king'" (or 'queen') who has 'power' over everyone 'in' the kingdom he (or she) personally rules - or as in 'you' when you 'play' the "If 'I' was the king of the world, 'I' would XYZ" wish-game in 'your' head.

It is Souls - the Life-Force gestalts 'in' everything - that naturally desire to 'expand', i.e. to 'grow' to fulfill more of their potential, 'develop' etc. The old idea of 'heaven' being 'up' ('above' our 'earth-plane) is what lead people to interpret such desire as a desire to 'ascend'.

Balloon pop! Wake 'up'. There are really no such thangs as 'up' or 'down' when it comes to spiritual realities!

Absolutely agree.

At the same time, the universe is bigger than our conception of it - yes David, even yours.

I just like trying to think I can think outside of my little box too.

Originally Posted by Busby

I hope relinquish will excuse me for pasting this post of his - but it really is the best thing I have ever read on SFs


Life Itself


In truth, the universe is nothing other than the single, seamless process of 'change' itself. It is seamless because it does not actually contain any 'solely self-inclusive forms'. In other words, the universal process of 'change' does not actually contain any separate 'things' or 'events'.

Any given 'particular thing' (for example, a 'tree') is always in a constant state of change, which is to say that 'the tree' is in fact a 'process' rather than a 'thing'. This process can ONLY be occurring if the necessary conditions are present. These conditions are 'not the tree', and are naturally comprised of 'other processes', ALL of which can ONLY be occurring if the necessary conditions are present. These conditions are 'not those other processes', and are naturally comprised of 'other other processes', ALL of which can ONLY be occurring if the necessary conditions are present, and so on, ad infinitum.

Therefore, 'the tree' could not possibly be occurring in exactly the way that it is without the ENTIRETY of 'not the tree' (i.e. the rest of the universe) occuring in exactly the way that it is. In this way, 'the tree' naturally includes within it's own existence the entirety of the rest of the universe. Exactly the same is true of ALL 'particular processes', including 'Me' and 'Not Me' (and 'You' and 'Not You').

As such, the fundamental distinctions between all the different processes do not actually exist, and so, the only process of 'change' that is ACTUALLY occurring is that of the entire universe as one seamless whole.

It gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that (being 'finite') it is the inseperable opposite of the causeless presence that is the Eternal Infinity itself, the nature of which is ever-changless, formless and perfectly symmetrical.

The only COHERENT ever-changing asymmetry is a 'FRACTAL' ever-changing asymmetry.

ALL apparent 'things' and 'events' are as they are simply because they are all 'parts' of this one eternally cyclic process.

Evidently, there are (at least for the moment) certain 'organic' parts of the process that are conscious of themselves and of their surroundings. This basic fact indicates that the universe is actually a (or rather, THE) Living Organism, naturally possessing a countless number of 'nerve ends' at all the appropriate points of it's 'body' (which are commonly known as 'life forms').

This, in turn, indicates that the causeless presence of the Eternal Infinity is actually none other than Life Itself.

Some of the nerve ends of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these extremely complex nerve ends (a.k.a. intelligent body/mind life-forms) that they are the separate, autonomous originators of their own particular movements.

As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.

In this resting, there can be no suffering...

Thanks for reading.

Peace

:)

That is really good. I raised the process point in post #47.

At the same time, I believe there is even more to it, working hand in hand with the 'process'.

[davidsun]

Great sharing of relinquish's post, Busby! Just one coment re:

Originally Posted by Busby

... the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.

In this resting, there can be no suffering...

Even in the 'harmonious' (??? maybe, but certainly not always in 'peace'-full terms!) organism of the human body, great battles are often 'fought' by (so-called) anti-bodies to quell and kill elements of life within said body which they deem to be injurious or a threat the well-being and continued life of 'the body'. And sometimes when they 'fail' to do so, as in when they don't detect and stop parasitical and cancerous over-growths, such elements may cause great pain in the body and ultimately 'kill' it. Analogy to what's going on on everywhere on our planet right now, aye what? Cough, cough!

Of course, waves of extinction may also be seen as 'helping' to establish a 'new' (more harmonous?) life order and so be regarded as being part of some 'greater' harmony-principle. But that's strethcing the meaning of the word 'harmony' which generally implies everything being a 'sweet' sounding balance, methinks.

Here's a passage from The Bhagavad Gita (which words translate as The Song of God), from the chapter titled The Cosmic Vision, which gets at the point I am making:

"“Arjuna said: My Lord! Thy words concerning the Supreme Secret of Self, given for my blessing, have dispelled the illusions which surrounded me.
O Lord, whose eyes are like the lotus petal! Thou hast described in detail the origin and the dissolution of being, and Thine own Eternal Majesty.
I believe all as Thou hast declared it. I long now to have a vision of thy Divine Form, O Thou Most High!
If Thou thinkest that it can be made possible for me to see it, show me, O*Lord of Lords, Thine own Eternal Self.

Lord Shri Krishna replied: Behold, O Arjuna! My celestial forms, by hundred and thousands, various in kind, in color and in shape.
Behold thou the Powers of Nature: fire, earth, wind and sky; the sun, the heavens, the moon, the stars; all forces of vitality and of healing; and the roving winds. See the myriad wonders revealed to none but thee.
Here in Me living as one, O*Arjuna, behold the whole universe, movable and immovable, and anything else that thou wouldst see!
Yet since with mortal eyes thou canst not see Me, lo! I give thee the Divine Sight. See now the glory of My Sovereignty.”

Sanjaya continued: “Having thus spoken, O King, the Lord Shri Krishna, the Almighty Prince of Wisdom, showed to Arjuna the Supreme Form of the Great God.
There were countless eyes and mouths, and mystic forms innumerable, with shining ornaments and flaming celestial weapons.
Crowned with heavenly garlands, clothed in shining garments, anointed with divine unctions, He showed Himself as the Resplendent One, Marvellous, Boundless, Omnipresent.
Could a thousand suns blaze forth together it would be but a faint reflection of the radiance of the Lord God.
In that vision Arjuna saw the universe, with its manifold shapes, all embraced in One, its Supreme Lord.
Thereupon Arjuna, dumb with awe, his hair on end, his head bowed, his hands clasped in salutation, addressed the Lord thus:

Arjuna said: O almighty God! I see in Thee the powers of Nature, the various creatures of the world, the Progenitor on his lotus throne, the Sages and the shining angels.
I see Thee, infinite in form, with, as it were, faces, eyes and limbs everywhere; no beginning, no middle, no end; O*Thou Lord of the Universe, Whose Form is universal!
I see thee with the crown, the sceptre and the discus; a blaze of splendour. Scarce can I gaze on thee, so radiant thou art, glowing like the blazing fire, brilliant as the sun, immeasurable.
Imperishable art Thou, the Sole One worthy to be known, the priceless Treasure-house of the universe, the immortal Guardian of the Life Eternal, the Spirit Everlasting.
Without beginning, without middle and without end, infinite in power, Thine arms all-embracing, the sun and moon Thine eyes, Thy face beaming with the fire of sacrifice, flooding the whole universe with light.
Alone thou fillest all the quarters of the sky, earth and heaven, and the regions between. O Almighty Lord! Seeing Thy marvellous and awe-inspiring Form, the spheres tremble with fear.
The troops of celestial beings enter into Thee, some invoking Thee in fear, with folded palms; the Great Seers and Adepts sing hymns to Thy Glory, saying `All Hail.’
The Vital Forces, the Major stars, Fire, Earth, Air, Sky, Sun, Heaven, Moon and Planets; the Angels, the Guardians of the Universe, the divine Healers, the Winds, the Fathers, the Heavenly Singers; and hosts of Mammon-worshippers, demons as well as saints, are amazed.
Seeing Thy stupendous Form, O*Most Mighty, with its myriad faces, its innumerable eyes and limbs and terrible jaws, I*myself and all the worlds are overwhelmed with awe.
When I see Thee, touching the Heavens, glowing with color, with open mouth and wide open fiery eyes, I am terrified. O My Lord! My courage and peace of mind desert me.
When I see Thy mouths with their fearful jaws like glowing fires at the dissolution of creation, I lose all sense of place; I find no rest. Be merciful, O Lord in whom this universe abides!
All these sons of Dhritarashtra, with the hosts of princes, Bheeshma, Drona and Karna, as well as the other warrior chiefs belonging to our side;
I see them all rushing headlong into Thy mouths, with terrible tusks, horrible to behold. Some are mangled between thy jaws, with their heads crushed to atoms.
As rivers in flood surge furiously to the ocean, so these heroes, the greatest among men, fling themselves into Thy flaming mouths.
As moths fly impetuously to the flame only to be killed, so these men rush into Thy mouths to court their own destruction.
Thou seemest to swallow up the worlds, to lap them in flame. Thy glory fills the universe. Thy fierce rays beat down upon it irresistibly.
Tell me then who Thou art, that wearest this dreadful Form? I bow before Thee, O Mighty One! Have mercy, I pray, and let me see Thee as Thou wert at first. I do not know what Thou intendest.

Lord Shri Krishna replied: I have shown myself to thee as the Destroyer who lays waste the world and whose purpose is destruction. In spite of thy efforts, all these warriors gathered for battle shall not escape death.
Then gird up thy loins and conquer. Subdue thy foes and enjoy the kingdom in prosperity. I have already doomed them. Be thou my instrument, Arjuna!
Drona and Bheeshma, Jayadratha and Karna, and other brave warriors – I have condemned them all. Destroy them; fight and fear not. Thy foes shall be crushed.”

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Then gird up thy loins and conquer. Subdue thy foes and enjoy the kingdom in prosperity. I have already doomed them. Be thou my instrument, Arjuna!
Drona and Bheeshma, Jayadratha and Karna, and other brave warriors – I have condemned them all. Destroy them; fight and fear not. Thy foes shall be crushed.”

P.S. re the Gita quote: I am not recommending that anyone 'take up arms' and 'fight' 'the bad guys' with them. That will just add to the havoc IMO and, in any case, it is too late for that to do much if any 'good'.

'Climate change' will eliminate, or at least cut back, 'the problem' - though a lot of 'good guys' will 'suffer' as well in the process (I am speaking physically and socially, not necessarily spiritually, now), this will be the planetary equivalent of 'extreme' 'chemotherapy'!

Think: how can/will I manage to (spiritually) 'flourish' instead of 'freak out' as the dung continues to hit the fan?

It is do-able, I tell you. I wrote my book with such 'challenge' in mind.

Speaking of our present 'challenge' - think of it as precipitating a spiritual 'crisis' - crisis = crossroads ... one could go either way ... hence it said 'challenge' also presents one with an 'opportunity' which one wouldn't (otherwise) have, for instance if everything was just flowing on its merry way in 'perfect' 'harmony' - in which case, one would more likely simply chosse something like just enjoying oneself to the max by just focusing on experiencing as much 'bliss' as possible (in couch-potate, video-game and movie watching 'heaven' , 'traveling' to 'exotic' places, or dabbling in ancient and esoteric philosophies maybe).