The Shiva Forum

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Did that already and it didn't work...but maybe I am just "spiritually immature". Problem is, I can't find anybody out there who is "spiritually mature" enough either to help me. In fact, I am pretty much done with reason, mind, logic, intellect, philosophy and ethics... because who cares if there is an elephant in the room? As long as it doesn't s*** on me, I'm all good.

Now, I like Atma Shatakham by Adi Shankaracharya...and he can get to say " I am Shiva" because he basically was.

I still have huge problems with saying " I am Shiva" because I am a Shiva Bhakta and becoming "that which I love" is too much of a huge step for me to take in this lifetime..So maybe in the next one...or the one after that...There is no rush..So anything anybody else could ever possibly say to me in regards will make absolutely no difference to me because I am just "not ready yet".

Meanwhile...There is a song I really like that was put out by the Zoarostrian band called Thoushaltnot which takes Within Without You to a whole new level...enjoy.
https://youtu.be/YB1zc9Bblsc

Aum Namah Shivaya

I understand your dilemma completely and it is a very common situation with bhaktis.

However, the "I am Shiva" (oneness with Shiva) shifts attention away from the little individualistic, separatist self and eventually transforms into simply "I AM". Eventually, that which is does not even say "I AM".

[SoulGenesis]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

When one is pure of heart ("transparent and all sharing" in your terminology), one becomes an instrument of THAT which lies beyond and, in that sense, becomes ONE with it as you duly noted. When one gets even a glimpse of THAT, one is in a better position to assess the omnipotence and all-knowing points that you raised as the power flows through one's being.

Nice post.

But our omnipotence lies in being self-responsible masters of our own soul salvation, not in the power to manifest heaven on earth. So if heaven doesn't happen on earth the soul/consciousness will reincarnate on a more appropriate place in the universe. Basically that's the concept of Moksha, i.e. it excludes that heaven on earth could ever be possible. The other extreme is that heaven on earth is promised to those that just blindly follow some creeds. But that's not consciousness to be reincarnated into a mature reasonable world.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I understand your dilemma completely and it is a very common situation with bhaktis.

However, the "I am Shiva" (oneness with Shiva) shifts attention away from the little individualistic, separatist self and eventually transforms into simply "I AM". Eventually, that which is does not even say "I AM".

Namaste.

The weird thing is that it is not a problem or a dilemma for me, it is just like that for everybody else and because everybody else had huge problems with what I did and what I believed in, it created a dilemma for me, where there was none.

Until I learned that it did not matter if even the whole world disagreed with me and followed the same viewpoint. I am very happy and satisfied within myself overall...sure, there are a few "teething problems" but I have a very strong and stubborn will....and so does Shiva. LOL

I know that I honestly love Shiva as a "God", but having total Faith, trust and surrender is another matter... Sometimes it's like that... Sometimes it is not, but it should be like that all the time..or more often anyway and then if I am meant to obtain Moksha, it will be by His Grace.

These are concepts that the intellectuals know nothing about.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[SoulGenesis]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Namaste.

The weird thing is that it is not a problem or a dilemma for me, it just was just like that for everybody else and because everybody else had huge problems with what I did and what I believed in, it created a dilemma for me, where there was none.

Until I learned that it did not matter if even the whole world disagreed with me and followed the same viewpoint.

I know that I honestly love Shiva as a "God", but having total Faith, trust and surrender is another thing... Sometimes it's like that... Sometimes it is not, but it should be like that all the time..or more often anyway and then if I am meant to obtain Moksha, it will be by Grace.

These are concepts that the intellectuals know nothing about.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Something that cannot be communicated cannot be known. So I'd question myself in that case. ;-)
Knowing results from understanding, but you might be understood by creatures that feel the same way as you do and where language i.e. rational understanding i.e. mind/intelligence is obsolete.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by SoulGenesis

Something that cannot be communicated cannot be known. So I'd question myself in that case. ;-)
Knowing results from understanding, but you might be understood by creatures that feel the same way as you do and where language i.e. rational understanding i.e. mind/intelligence is obsolete.

Of course anything that cannot be communicated cannot be known, but it can be experienced and this is also why discussing spiritual matters on a forum is pretty pointless for people, because no words can describe love beyond "love" and no words can describe bliss beyond "bliss" and I never question myself or look within; I don't need to... because I have learned that this is what "spiritual people" say when they can't be bothered talking to me.

[SoulGenesis]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Of course anything that cannot be communicated cannot be known, but it can be experienced and this is also why discussing spiritual matters on a forum is pretty pointless for people, because no words can describe love beyond "love" and no words can describe bliss beyond "bliss" and I never question myself or look within; I don't need to... because I have learned that this is what "spiritual people" say when they can't be bothered talking to me.

Of course we all love to be happy and in my life I had some nice experiences. It it were masturbation, it would be very easy, so there must be a way to reach there through understanding - it's a matter of dignity of the mind. At least you said that money is between you and the promised land and I said that money itself is the mother of all non-transparent business models, i.e. trading with "happiness" that in such case is not really real. ;-)

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

When one is pure of heart ("transparent and all sharing" in your terminology), one becomes an instrument of THAT which lies beyond and, in that sense, becomes ONE with it as you duly noted. When one gets even a glimpse of THAT, one is in a better position to assess the omnipotence and all-knowing points that you raised as the power flows through one's being.

"Still waters run deep!"

Re: Omni-potent and all-knowing, let me ask readers to contemplate why (on earth or anywhere else for that matter :smile) would any soul even 'want' to be/experience that? As though sufficiency: i.e. sufficient knowledge and sufficient power wasn't completely being-fulfilling in one's present state.

It strikes me that the very desire to steady-state be/experience living at the Omni/All level implies a thought, feeling or belief of 'not enough'ness.

This is the very same 'temptation', to wit: "in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods" (which implies one thinks, feels, believes one isn't so as is), which falsehood-based 'seductive' temptation, as succumbed to, resulted in metaphorical Eve and Adam being allegorically 'exiled' from The Garden of Eden, and so existentially experiencing 'incompleteness' (i.e. insufficiency) thereafter.

Watch out for 'wanting', 'desiring', 'believing' that it would be better, i.e. that 'you' would be/feel more 'fulfilled', if you could be and did experience being more that you presently are, folks!

Let him or her that can hear hear! Lots of such 'temptation' being pied-piper-bandied about in places such as here!

Speaking of bandying hoops about (kids 'played' this way in India where I grew up) : "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_rolling

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I have learned that this is what "spiritual people" say when they can't be bothered talking to me.

The way 'see' IT, obviously ignoring all of facts right in front of you to the contrary, THIS (stated) experience is what your soul continues to choose/claim/create as your 'pity me' party!

My soul ain't playing that 'game' tho. My guess is it must be for you to learn something and so 'do' better - which, of course, you wont till you so learn and do,.

In the [u]mean[/U(LOL)]time, you'll get no pity from me (at all!), though I attend your party as a multi-incarnational 'relative' (this me was born and grew up in TamilNadu, you knoe!), stubborn Shivanian-power GRRRL!

[Shivani Devi]

Namaste to both Davidsun and SoulGenesis.

Whatever works for each of you, works for each of you, full stop.

What works for me, also works for me, no matter how/what you personally feel about my attitude or what I believe in, because ad-hominem retort makes no difference here...so go ahead and judge/criticise me all you like; I will just laugh.

This thread is about Lord Shiva, but not one single question about this, or even why it is that I believe what I do, but all of that is unimportant to one who seeks to discredit another under some self-righteous, moral guise.

If I really wanted to, I could go into the similarities and differences between the Jivatman and the Paramatman. If I really wanted to, I could indulge in rational philosophy that would even put Adi Shankara to shame...I have thought my way to the very limits of what the mind is capable of knowing and through it, I have understood that knowledge and mental gymnastics cannot lead to Moksha.

However, I have put all of that aside to go into what has been deep inside me from the very beginning, but I cannot take credit for this by saying "I am that"... Maybe possession by a Deva is as close as anybody else could ever get to understanding it, but I still retain my own individual personally and free will...even though I have this beautiful, loving, intelligent conscious energy inside me and it is also without...All pervasive...but it isn't me, because it is also self aware.

Whatever anybody thinks of me as a person in light of my beliefs or religion is totally immaterial...I have already made up my mind and "sold my soul" as it were...so any kind of redemption in the eyes of humanity is impossible, because I only answer to one now and if you have any questions about that, kindly ask them and keep on this thread topic please or else I won't respond in future.

Aum Namah Shivaya.

[SoulGenesis]

"For a soul "ad-hominem" doesn't exist."

There can only exist annoying nonsense... ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVzepkiNmQU