4 Christian giants with no biblical support.

[mickiel]

Originally Posted by ciel_perdu

I would like it if you could actually cut and paste my arguments that Jesus does not teach us to pay taxes, and for you to respond to those points. As it is, you're still avoiding my arguments on the tax topic. Here's an example of something you could respond to:

I am not avoiding your arguments , I simply view them as null and void. Jesus was not against having money , he was against people " Putting their trust in money" , Mark 10:24, Ps. 56:4. Jesus said it would be " Easier" for a camel to go through the eye of a needle , than a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of heaven. Again common sense tells us a camel cannot go through the eye of a needle, but the lesson was one of putting your trust in money. The same principle apply's to render to the king or the president those things that are his , and to God those things that are God's. It means we are responsible for paying our portion of taxes or any monies we owe the government for whatever reason. It is lawful to pay money to the government , and it is lawful for the government to pay us for working. Anyone who cannot see what Mark 13-17 is teaching , they just don't want to see it, or they don't believe that people are obligated to pay a man for his labor. Paul taught in Romans 13:7 to render, or to pay, all to whom it is due, and not to owe no man anything, verse 8. Jesus plainly affirmed this. You honor yourself and others when you pay them; 1 Pet. 2:17.

Jesus was not against receiving wages for labor, John 4:34-38.

And I certainly am not against it. But I grow tired of trying to explain this to someone who is obviously against it.

Originally Posted by mickiel

I am not avoiding your arguments , I simply view them as null and void. .

And the result of your viewing my arguments as 'null and void' is that you avoid dealing with them.

I too am getting tired of the circle we seem to be going around in. So perhaps to brake that cycle, could you actually respond to these few questions (amongst many) which I have repeatedly asked you?

1) Can you give a rational reason for why these guys who were sent to 'catch Jesus in his words' were hoping that he would say ''Yes, I teach we should pay taxes to Caesar''. How would that be catching him in his words, how would that be something on which they could 'get him on'?

2) You and Molearner both said that Jesus did teach the kinds of things I have been saying, but only for his select 12 disciples. I respond with something Jesus actually said (rather than just giving my opinion of what I think), and you guys don't respond to that whatsoever. Here is what Jesus said in response to your guy's argument that what he taught was only for the 12 disciples. Jesus (to his disciples) ''Go into all the world teaching people to obey all things that I have commanded you''. So perhaps you could break the monotony, and give your argument for why Jesus didn't mean what he meant here?

I look forward to your reply.

Originally Posted by Baile

Imagine if John the Baptist posted on the internet that he was planning to go live in the wilderness, and why. Imagine how foolish it would be to try and talk him out of his belief and mission, knowing what we know. That's all the "rationale" and "scripture" that's required with this whole question: Ya do what ya do 'cus ya gotta do it. What's left to discuss? Just go do it.

Unless you're trying to tell others THEY need to be doing what you're doing because, according to you, the Bible says so. Well that's not even a valid discussion point. That's just fundamentalism.

I have just shared this verse with Mickiel (again), but here it is for your convenience.

''Go into all the world teaching people to obey all things that I have commanded you''.

I believe in doing what Jesus taught, and that is what I teach others. Usually I do take different approaches with people depending on where they're coming from, as Jesus also did, but here, on what is supposed to be a 'Christian' forum, I feel it's completely within the remit that Jesus have given me (as a disciple) to uphold and teach what he taught. Call that fundamentalism if you like, but bottom line is Jesus did teach his followers to DO (literally) certain things and to teach others to do the same.

So, if it's a choice of being a fundamentalist in the eyes of others, or doing what Jesus taught his disciples to do, I think I'll opt with Jesus.

[mickiel]

Originally Posted by ciel_perdu

And the result of your viewing my arguments as 'null and void' is that you avoid dealing with them.

I too am getting tired of the circle we seem to be going around in. So perhaps to brake that cycle, could you actually respond to these few questions (amongst many) which I have repeatedly asked you?

1) Can you give a rational reason for why these guys who were sent to 'catch Jesus in his words' were hoping that he would say ''Yes, I teach we should pay taxes to Caesar''. How would that be catching him in his words, how would that be something on which they could 'get him on'?

2) You and Molearner both said that Jesus did teach the kinds of things I have been saying, but only for his select 12 disciples. I respond with something Jesus actually said (rather than just giving my opinion of what I think), and you guys don't respond to that whatsoever. Here is what Jesus said in response to your guy's argument that what he taught was only for the 12 disciples. Jesus (to his disciples) ''Go into all the world teaching people to obey all things that I have commanded you''. So perhaps you could break the monotony, and give your argument for why Jesus didn't mean what he meant here?

I look forward to your reply.

I grow tired of your questions , and I am tired of giving you answers that you can't see.

Peace on your journey.

[mickiel]

Originally Posted by ciel_perdu

And the result of your viewing my arguments as 'null and void' is that you avoid dealing with them.

I too am getting tired of the circle we seem to be going around in. So perhaps to brake that cycle, could you actually respond to these few questions (amongst many) which I have repeatedly asked you?

1) Can you give a rational reason for why these guys who were sent to 'catch Jesus in his words' were hoping that he would say ''Yes, I teach we should pay taxes to Caesar''. How would that be catching him in his words, how would that be something on which they could 'get him on'?

2) You and Molearner both said that Jesus did teach the kinds of things I have been saying, but only for his select 12 disciples. I respond with something Jesus actually said (rather than just giving my opinion of what I think), and you guys don't respond to that whatsoever. Here is what Jesus said in response to your guy's argument that what he taught was only for the 12 disciples. Jesus (to his disciples) ''Go into all the world teaching people to obey all things that I have commanded you''. So perhaps you could break the monotony, and give your argument for why Jesus didn't mean what he meant here?

I look forward to your reply.

I was asked by a friend to answer these questions for one last time.

Question one , certain Pharisees and Herodians were sent to " Catch him in his words." They were trying to see if Jesus had an ego to rub and how he would compare his teachings on God with paying taxes to Caesar. They wanted Jesus to disagree with paying taxes, ( which is just another form of saying that we should not work for money, which is what Ciel Perdu is trying to weasel out of me) , Jesus already knew they were hypocrites and he used a penny to say that we should pay taxes ; this story is just that simple. It is legal to pay taxes , and illegal not to pay taxes. And giving to God is something that believers will do in their hearts in whatever way they are inspired to give ; and Jesus , in no manner , ever taught that we should not work and not get a pay for working.

In question two Jesus taught his disciples --" to teach." Another simple thing to explain. There is no need to make this question a mountain in a molehill; meaning to try and make it something for theologians. Again common sense tells us that they could not " Go into all the world" and teach; they only could travel where it was possible at the time. They were taught to teach what they were taught.

And with this I am done with Perdu , because he has no end to his kind of reasoning ; his mind is seared.

[mickiel]

I think the recent discussion is ample proof that some believers in God, and I mean groups , not individuals , just create their own versions of the truth contained in the bible , and in many cases they create whole churches and groups of churches involved in what they call " Fellowships."

You can prove almost anything with biblical verses , and with a little work you can birth a church. One man can begin the birth of a church. One man I knew years ago , Mr. Williams , even went so far as to name the church after himself , " Williams Chapel." One man can lift a biblical verse out of context , teach that deception to many others , and even plant churches based on that one principal taken out of context ; the birth of " Prosperity Ministries" began this way. They make subtle mistakes in their interpretations and blindly lift verses out of their historical context and the churches they create are outside of biblical bounds ; but the people they lead mean well and are mostly serious believers in God.

Notice God himself in Jeremiah 23:11, " For both Prophet and Priest are profane , yes , even " In my house I have found their wickedness" , says the Lord." Even some of God's churches the leaders are wicked and profane. The knowledge they teach is wicked in God's eyes , but not in their followers eyes. Why do people follow these men? Well the men may be decent in their life styles and have a " Form of godliness" , 2 Tim. 3:5. They teach things that " Sound good", things that tickle the imagination of well meaning believers who don't really study the bible deeply for themselves.

These small groups become large groups , the large groups become " Mega Churches", Christian giants with no real solid biblical truths.

[mickiel]

Originally Posted by ciel_perdu

I have just shared this verse with Mickiel (again), but here it is for your convenience.

''Go into all the world teaching people to obey all things that I have commanded you''.

I believe in doing what Jesus taught, and that is what I teach others. Usually I do take different approaches with people depending on where they're coming from, as Jesus also did, but here, on what is supposed to be a 'Christian' forum, I feel it's completely within the remit that Jesus have given me (as a disciple) to uphold and teach what he taught. Call that fundamentalism if you like, but bottom line is Jesus did teach his followers to DO (literally) certain things and to teach others to do the same.

So, if it's a choice of being a fundamentalist in the eyes of others, or doing what Jesus taught his disciples to do, I think I'll opt with Jesus.

Greetings Perdu,

A friend requested that I ask you , if everyone on earth did what you believe and not work for money , could the people of earth survive like that? How would it change the earth? Would you even stop printing money? How would businesses survive?

My friend is very curious as to how the earth would be managed in a society like that.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by mickiel

Greetings Perdu,

A friend requested that I ask you , if everyone on earth did what you believe and not work for money , could the people of earth survive like that? How would it change the earth? Would you even stop printing money? How would businesses survive?

My friend is very curious as to how the earth would be managed in a society like that.

You're describing the Eloi from The War of the Worlds. The Morlocks loved how that paradise turned out.

[mickiel]

Originally Posted by Baile

You're describing the Eloi from The War of the Worlds. The Morlocks loved how that paradise turned out.

Greetings Baile,

I know we have our disagreements , but we also have our agreements.

Jesus taught many things , and those things are there for all to see , but its us who see things differently. Perdu asked me for scriptures showing Jesus teachings on work and money , and I gave him many , but I don't think he sees them as I do. In example yet again, in Matt. 6:11-12 , again Jesus teaching , " Give us this day our daily bread , and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. " We have to eat daily , and if the whole world must live like Perdu is suggesting, then there must be free food fenders and free food lines on every other block or space in the world. And they must feed 7.4 billion people every day , if we cannot work for money.

Jesus teaches to forgive our debts ; A debt is something owed , such as money , goods or services. It is an obligation to pay someone else. And it is normally money. This is all in the same area as reading a scripture that leads to common sense conclusions. We have debts and we need to pay them, we need the money to do so. Yet another biblical principal that supports working for money ; Jesus does not outright say those words , but one can see the spirit of what he is thinking , formulating in his great mind.

We again should owe no man anything , and the best way to achieve that is by working and earning your own money. But again , not every reader will see this alike.

If we should not work for money , then 7.4 billion humans must be fed free every day , clothed free , get free medical treatment , get free lodging or room and board. And the people who provide these services must work free of charge. That is incredible suggestion.

I do wish every heart would believe that and agree with it and live by it ; but we do not live on such an earth now. God bless Perdus heart , he is seeing an earth that is yet to come.