Ethics: Benefit and Harm

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by A human Being

To you, Gem. Just because it means nothing to you doesn't make it an inherently vacuous statement. That is simply your perception, just as your interpretation of the monk's statement is the result of your perception. And you can say, 'don't make it about me,' but your perception is about you, and your mindset. Your interpretation read to me like the words of a person who has a preoccupation with power dynamics and oppression.

If this was me self reflecting on my own words, I would be reflecting on why I might need to determine another's interpretation without asking them first? You see what I mean about self reflecting on what your reading into all this before knowing it to be true. If I was curious about the why, I would ask directly? Wouldn't you do that if you wanted to know? Wouldn't you rather hear from the horses mouth directly to know all this?.(I cant mention names so horse will do)

And again with this. You've spoken about the importance of listening, how really listening to another is a mark of respect, and I agree wholeheartedly. But you are so often dismissive of what other people say, you're not really hearing them at all because you've already made your mind up that they're simply spouting spiritual clichés and therefore they're saying nothing of value.

You say the horse is dismissive. And that the horse has made it's mind up. And the horse is not really hearing.

IN reflection I kind of look at that and think, how can I say this about another who could answer me directly those thoughts I am having, then I would know directly from the horses mouth. Then go from there..you see?

This is just me seeing and curious I don't care what you do, just I noticed and so thought I would ask you directly my questions as I did in the other post. (you didn't answer me anyway not directly, but that's ok )

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I notice that you have this affect on those who want you to bend and twist the way they want you too. Then I often notice how they give up and leave the conversation when they don't get what they need in this way? I find it interesting that you of all people who seem very clear to me, create this issue of others believing you don't budge or bend and that you are wasting their breath.. Then I wonder where all that no budge, no bend and wasted breath comes from that creates all this?

anyway this song I am listening to right now fits..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFY4...vTxt3b&index=5

Admittedly, I am a demanding person who requires something more substantial - because frankly - I've heard all the typical spiritual stuff a thousand times, and although it's nice, I require something more engaging.

Look, there is a way we are supposed to act so as to maintain the appearance of that thing which is recognisably 'spiritual'. Fact is, I'm not a 'spiritual person'. I simply am. I'm just a guy you might meet on the train, or in a meeting, or even at an ashram - you know just a guy with strengths ad weaknesses, attributes and faults, awesomeness and issues. I'm not special in any particular way. I'm 'just like everyone else' but in my own way. People want me to move an inch because they want me in a position, but I don't position anyone... I'm just demanding in that I expect people to speak from where they are. It may be a fault I have, but I don't claim to be perfect - as I said, I'm not particularly remarkable either way.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Admittedly, I am a demanding person who requires something more substantial - because frankly - I've heard all the typical spiritual stuff a thousand times, and although it's nice, I require something more engaging.

Frankly I don't give a damn, do what you want, its your life for goodness sake. Its no skin of my nose, unless your horse and you bite it with sharp teeth. We are all human beings, being human, I don't mean we are being human being himself, but we are all human beings being human...(I could make that one into a tongue twister if I really wanted too )

Look, there is a way we are supposed to act so as to maintain the appearance of that thing which is recognisably 'spiritual'. Fact is, I'm not a 'spiritual person'. I simply am. I'm just a guy you might meet on the train, or in a meeting, or even at an ashram - you know just a guy with strengths ad weaknesses, attributes and faults, awesomeness and issues. I'm not special in any particular way. I'm 'just like everyone else' but in my own way. People want me to move an inch because they want me in a position, but I don't position anyone... I'm just demanding in that I expect people to speak from where they are. It may be a fault I have, but I don't claim to be perfect - as I said, I'm not particularly remarkable either way.

Good on you. Tell the world who you are. Your a human being, just like human being ....(don't start that again naturesflow!!!! Ok I won't. I do listen to myself sometimes, not all the time but sometimes. .)

[Adrienne]

This thread needs a cooling off period .........

[Adrienne]

This thread is now re- opened. Focus on the topic and not on criticisms of each other, their views , beliefs etc. and speak respectfully to each other.

Brief reminder of the respect rule, which you should already be aware of.

Respect: Please respect other member’s and their beliefs, opinions, and views at all times. Members are also advised to be polite to other members at all times.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Frankly I don't give a damn, do what you want, its your life for goodness sake. Its no skin of my nose, unless your horse and you bite it with sharp teeth. We are all human beings, being human, I don't mean we are being human being himself, but we are all human beings being human...(I could make that one into a tongue twister if I really wanted too )



Good on you. Tell the world who you are. Your a human being, just like human being ....(don't start that again naturesflow!!!! Ok I won't. I do listen to myself sometimes, not all the time but sometimes. .)

Sure. There's reasons why I can speak for and of myself whereas no one else is allowed, and due to the extremes of it in the past, I don't tolerate it anymore. I'd just like to point out that there is 'special language', which basically sounds like 'your ego', which is overlooked because it is within the spiritually correct lexicon.

On the ethical level there are actual reasons for not making people subjects. It gives others the power to define them and inhibits their own power to articulate themselves. If I use the example of Aboriginal peoples, there is a history of pseud-scientific, anthropology, social research and media which purports to tell the truth about Aboriginal bodies, minds, morals, cultures, communities ad societies - and the self-defined person is absent, silenced, in all that noise. As a result, despite all that is being said, no one actually understands the living person. The person is treated in accordance to the 'knowledge about' them, but that person never got to say how they would like to be treated. It's a terrible boundary violation, in all regards, on all levels, and it caused a lot of harm. I'm sorry if Buddha or any spiritual teacher hasn't given us any teachings on the necessity of self-definition, and the tragedy of defining someone else, and I therefore can't say something that 'we all know to be true'.

When it comes to Gem, his issues, his ego and what have you, I'm just a guy living in a Sydney suburb. I have issues and egomania and all of that stuff, like anyone else in my banal suburban street with its primary school, corner shop and bus stops. I am not a perfect spiritual entity and I'm not pretending to be, and I resent all the social pressure that compels me to pretend to be. Lastly, the interest isn't genuine. In my life I meet a person and I find them interesting, so I inquire to find out about them. I don't start saying, oh you are this and that kind of person. I ask so they can reveal themselves to the degree they feel comfortable with, and I don't assert anything about them at all.

On one occasion in the past there we a few going, 'gem's ego' like that, and I was like, if you would inquire I might tell you things about myself. Guess what? No one asked. We can then start to examine what is really going on. For example, if you became the centre of an issue and no one asked you, but rather told you, about yourself, we can safely assume that no one is actually interested in you, actually. The interest is in something else. I don't know what, and this a hypothetical example anyway, but the point is, this is the nature of an ethical consideration. One examines the situation and the circumstances and asks around about how people are making meanings of it in their own lives, how it affects people, and what people want to do about it, and if they have the means to do it. As we see in the small scale 'Gem ego story' or in the large scale of Aboriginal peoples, for examples, if we don't take the ethical approach, there becomes a great risk of harm.

[7luminaries]

There's a lot on this thread that could be explored more fully for individuals and for society as a whole.

I agree that fundamentally interpersonal ethics (which are the bedrock of all else) have been largely gutted and dumbed down, and we have to flesh them out again on our own.

A large & perhaps overwhelming majority have been conditioned by mainstream culture to believe that ethics are tied only to established crusty religious traditions -- and that if you chuck those, then "ethics" is unfortunately typically reduced to the most amoral and unsustainable belief possible...namely, whatever is purely utilitarian and maximally self-serving for the individual.

What is needed is neither this nor that (adherence to either rigid institutional morality or sheer amoral utilitarianism), but an alternative way forward.

Clearly, there is still a core need for sustainable interaction (i.e., that which displays or manifests humanitarian and authentically loving behaviours), regardless of how we conceive of God or Spirit and regardless of whether one aligns with any particular religious or institutional belief system.

A great thread. I'll have to come back later to say more.

Peace & blessings,
7L