preferred meditation.

Originally Posted by Eelco

The reason I asked is that I "believe" some form of "formal" meditation practice is almost unavoidable if I am to take the noble path seriously as a path leading to the cessation of dukkha.

Formal meditation practice with not fundamentally change who and what you are. I know many people who have done a formal meditation practice for 50 years and they have not changed at all. Still self centered, petty, mean, negative, self righteous, full of self importance.

Of course as your previous post to me said, you mind may jump to, oh so do nothing? My post about how we already have it, already are it, it is already fully here was met with no, we have to seek it imagining one idea was related to and opposed to the other. The ideas are not contradictory.

Do we seek what is already here?

Yes and no. I have sought it for decades. The question is what that means. What do we mean by seeking? As you are posting here, it can mean going to some place and doing what they say. Sit here and do this or that. Seeking manifested in that way, as a way to get something will not work. All one is doing is strengthening ego. Creating a conflict in the now. Like I said, it is already here fully. We are obscuring it with our doing. See in this case one's doing is creating a conflict in the now.

We imagine so many things there. We imagine we don't have it. We imagine it is not present. We imagine someone else can teach us how to find it, how to get it, how to experience it. We imagine sitting and doing this or that can make it appear to us and on and on. All imagination. None of that is true.

I'll stop there but this was an interesting link I came upon today that may clarify some of this. A study found two things came from practicing "mindfulness," a bigger ego and less compassion or a smaller ego and more compassion. Why would a formal meditation practice make some more self centered and more egotistical and make others less these things?

Because we all have a certain level of self understanding and awareness. If someone has a big ego, meditating will just make that bigger as that is "who" the meditator is.

The important thing is what is your goal and this is related to self understanding. Do you recognize you need to change fundamentally what and who you are or are you merely seeking to make what you are greater?

Here the link:
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article...ke-you-selfish

Originally Posted by Eelco

For instance during or after meditating. Do you experience an increased awareness? Do defilements of the mind increase or decrease.

What one is seeking is a realization of their true nature and the true nature of everything. We are in delusion. We identify with what is not us as us. Our past, our conditioning, our thoughts...this is who we believe we are or think ourselves to be. We project this false self externally. This person that is created by fully identifying with this body and it's memory and mind as "me."

I like what you posted there, "Do defilements of the mind increase or decrease." That's another complicated thing. Scientists have found the brain will actually slow down or stop altogether making thoughts when we take our attention fully off of thought. So we don't stop thought or start thought, the body and brain has that function. We have zero control over that function. BUT.... we have potential control over where our attention is placed. What we are making important or focusing on. So though awareness of where our attention is placed, and preferring it to be on "emptiness" or the now as it is, "defilements of mind" cease to be present to conscious awareness.

I said potential there as that is not the norm. The norm is to not bring that awareness into the foreground as self. Instead, the attention is on thought as self, and that is the instigator of feeling and perception etc.

[sky]

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

I'll stop there but this was an interesting link I came upon today that may clarify some of this

It's extremely interesting, it shows a group of Students who performed Mindfulness twice but weren't Practitioners of Mindfulness, see the difference
Now if a Study was done on Practitioners it would show a very different result.

Ok, I'm taking a guess here and say that the topic of meditation as a practice is not very popular among this crowd.
Check.

I think it's useful, and it really isn't that hard to see progress and keep one's ego in check. evaluate results over time and with the sutta's and some books on dharma in hand get a feel for where you are heading.

Even though thoughts can decrease or even stop when the mind is intentionally placed elsewhere.
According to the buddha such a feat is done/accompanied by "rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation." where one increasingly lets rapture, directed thought, evaluation and pleasure fall away (shift attention away from them)in a way that stillness increases.

For now, that's the goal.
That paired with some Vipassana practice should go a long way towards stream-entry. And yes we're not talking about the Sila training here, but they are as important off the cushion as Samatha and vipassana are on the cusion.

Here's a map I found on possible states of mind with formal meditation.
For those interested.
It shows the concentration states, the progress of insight through vipassana and their correlation.

Yes some people sit for 50 years and nothing happens. Some who take their meditation practice in a
skillful way come to these places. Which seems desirable until it all has to be let go.
Here's a link to the map, as the original is too big to be included here.
https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...8/Pathways.jpg

[sky]

Originally Posted by Eelco

I think it's useful, and it really isn't that hard to see progress

I agree, extremely useful when it becomes part of life and not a 'Chore' that has to be done at a certain time in a certain place.....

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

Of course as your previous post to me said, you mind may jump to, oh so do nothing? My post about how we already have it, already are it, it is already fully here was met with no, we have to seek it imagining one idea was related to and opposed to the other. The ideas are not contradictory.

I'm sorry that that was how my post came across, I merely weighed your words against those of the sutta's and meditators who I deem knowledgeable where it comes to practice. I don't find your words contradictory. You allude to a mediation where your efforts are pointed away from thought by keeping other objects than thoughts in mind. To me, this alludes to some pretty well-developed concentration.

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

As you are posting here, it can mean going to some place and doing what they say. Sit here and do this or that. Seeking manifested in that way, as a way to get something will not work. All one is doing is strengthening ego. Creating a conflict in the now. Like I said, it is already here fully. We are obscuring it with our doing. See in this case one's doing is creating a conflict in the now.

This isn't what I am advocating at all. Unless the someplace is a cushion on which to sit in the relative seclusion of distractions. The practice would then consist of either one of the 3 trainings, contemplating ones Sila, Not from an egotistical point of view, but in order to gladden and soften the mind. Spread goodwill, Honest reflection of ones actions and review of what there is left to do, Concentration which means take any of the listed kassina's and gather the mind around the object in order to gain concentration and vipassana or insight in order to see the arising and passing away of phenomena and acknowledge/comprehend how those phenomena are the causes for suffering (unskillful) or happiness (Skillful)and either abandon or nourish those.

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

We imagine so many things there. We imagine we don't have it. We imagine it is not present. We imagine someone else can teach us how to find it, how to get it, how to experience it. We imagine sitting and doing this or that can make it appear to us and on and on. All imagination. None of that is true.

I see imagination as imagination. Everything is fabricated and will lead to more dukkha. What I am alluding to is the practice to use those fabrications in a beneficial way.
Moving attention away from thought may be beneficial as it seems to be your experience (if I understand you correctly).
As it is I am not able to do so consciously. That's why I am trying to follow the directions of the sutta's and find the incentives to do so by reading accounts of other people's experiences of "formal" practices.


I hope that clears up my views a bit.

[Gem]

I think there is a bit of an error in chasing stages, when the idea is to be conscious of what's gong on without reacting to it. The ability to not react is equanimity. If that is dependent on special states of mind, it means equanimity isn't very well established. It deals with kamma, which is volition, and volition is incited by craving, so the primary principle of practice is the cessation of craving. However one also needs an ability to 'look deeply' or have 'subtle awareness. Hence meditation is defined in the Satipatthana as ardent awareness free of craving in the world. Craving is said to be the dynamic tension between aversion and desire, and during sessions especially you will see how easily adverse reactivity disturbs peace of mind, and how the tendency to desire pleasure and/or special experiences arises. Of course we are doing that constantly in everyday life without really realising it, which is why a deliberate focused practice can be so revealing of what's going on with ourselves.

This sounds like I'm talking about mind awareness, and I am, but not separately from body awareness. Craving arises from feeling and not from other senses such as sight, sound, etc. Hence body awareness is central to the practice, breath being the awareness of what breathing feels like.

Hencewhy I see an error in any attempt to elicit pleasure because one might believe it is necessary for peace of mind, or avoiding displeasure. Meditation is the cessation of all of that. When the texts talk about pleasure, rapture and so on, it doesn't really mean you make that happen. It means that's what happens as consequence to practice and purification. If it happens to be painful, that's just the way it is. Good chance to cultivate more stable equanimity.

When I say purification one would fairly assume that I mean you are supposed to do something to purify yourself, but you just observe consciously aware that 'this' is what it's like - free of any desire or aversion. Think about it, where is impurity in mind arising? From the reactivity, the craving, and the 'right effort' is not to do something, but to stop doing that.

If we are going to say it is impelled by desire, then it has to be the desire for the truth, not what was or what could be or what we want, but what is, as you actually experience it. When you feel the breathing, you don't make it feel that way. You just notice what it feels like. No one makes it happen. If you sit for a while you'll start to become uncomfortable, and with that start to react, but this time you notice, sensation/reaction, and because you are aware, you cease reactivity. You'll start to notice how wild the mind really is, impatience, insecurity, doubt, self-depreciation, and start to understand in depth the 1st Noble Truth.

If you are unable to not-react, persist, and like anything else, you get better at what you practice. With determination and persistence the mind becomes more stable, and the stable mind is less distracted or more concentrated, which enables more subtle perception.

Hence the practice has 2 aspects: subtle perception and equanimity. One aspect is to hone the sensitivity of mind's perception by examining the subtle mindful object, and the other aspect is non-reactivity. That's why Buddha defines 'Ardent awareness free of aversion and desire in the world'.

Originally Posted by Gem

The way I see it is people will want to avoid the unpleasant feelings and want the pleasurable ones because aversion toward the former and desire for the latter, but I take a very factual approach to it so if it's pain, OK, and if it's pleasure, alright. I think the trick is coming to understand the impermanence. Pain, pleasure: this will pass, and knowing impermanence is a key to establishing equanimity.
(snipped part of the post here)

understanding how feeling and craving operates together in yourself is necessary to discovering the 2nd Noble Truth.

In the stages of insight, equanimity is pretty high up there. The maps seem to give an overview of stages that people generally experience before they arrive at equanimity. None of them are very pleasant although some are quite interesting.

After reading and listening to Thanissaro Bhikkhu I am changing my view on the importance of acknowledging the importance of the 3 characteristics. Where before I fabricated them as being the doors through which we see the TRUTH of objects and took them to be the way to enter stream-entry. I now see them as a way to perceive truth, but try to incorporate them as a way to understand the 4 noble truths. I am yet unable to clearly articulate the difference, but there seems to be a subtle experiential difference there, which in my case does away with some of the misery and disgust I experience when taking them full-on as objects in and of themselves.

Originally Posted by sky123

I agree, extremely useful when it becomes part of life and not a 'Chore' that has to be done at a certain time in a certain place.....

Agreed. Although I find that sometimes when it feels like a chore, taking the time to sit and observe the silliness of mind is beneficial for going about the day. Either because you pat yourself on the back for suffering through another dreary hour of practice or by being able to gladden and still the mind so a sense of well-being and ease accompanies you through the rest of the day.

Or merely getting a chance to observe and see this to is how the mind behaves. Which for me seems harder to do, because the mind sometimes doesn't like being watched that closely, which sometimes is exactly why it produces feelings like dreariness and chores.