What if History is Richer than Belief?

[Amilius777]

I know Christianity has it's tenets:

Jesus Christ,
born of the virgin Mary
Son of God, God from God,
Suffered under Pilate,
Died, Rose Again on 3rd Day,
Resurrected, Ascended into heaven etc.

One you look at this you can't help but ask- "God, why the hell does this sound like a revamped declaration of some Egyptian Pharaoh?"

Well because it most certainly is. I always call myself a "Catholic" and I believe in the "essence" of Catholicism. I always wondered "Well it has to be right because for 2,000 years it has grown to 2.1. Billion members." But then I say- "Yes but people use to think the world was flat for 100,000s of years!"

I wonder if the "majesty" and "nostalgia" of the Catholic Church is intended by the Divine as exactly That! What if the ancient pagan traditions were truly the Truth? They existed way before all the Monotheistic religions. In fact all the Monotheism is basically the faith in ONE SINGLE UNITED IDEAL or "God". And that One Single Mystery can only be understood in all Pagan traditions as 'Three Persons'- A father, a mother, and a Son.

Just what if the historical Jesus was none of these things? I don't think it would shaken my faith since I believe in a unison of Matter and Spirit.

With the election of Pope Francis I was reading something interesting from Pope John XXIII:

"We do not have to believe that Jesus DIED on the cross but that he shed his blood for the world". Basically he was getting at the fact that Jesus shed his blood for the sake of becoming a "new" Man.

I don't think Christianity would fall apart if they found out Jesus didn't literally die and resurrect. In fact I am ready to accept anything to be possible.

Possiblity?: Jesus, a man who is son of Joseph and Mary. Grows up as a radical Rabbi teaching Wisdom, lives in nondual consciousness which is his Kingdom of Heaven. Teaches the kingdom of God, or the universal control of God over all history. A man who was poor and destitute. Who led a franchise of healing and exorcising. A man convicted of leadership over Rome. A man who was seen by Pilate as a great wisdom teacher? Perhaps help save him. Got him crucified. He shed his blood for the social injustice of the world. Maybe survived the crucifixion? Lived a while afterwards until he passed on into the spirit world? Who knows...because I don't know!

Is the New Testament filled with myths? :

Christian college students are often devastated to hear of ancient religions which contained stories of resurrections, dying saviors, baptismal initiations, miraculous births, and the like. The inference, of course, is that the early Christian writers borrowed these stories and attributed them to Jesus as they formulated the Christian religion. Jewish scholar Pinchas Lapide states:

Click link to read more.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Amilius777

He shed his blood for the social injustice of the world.

There is more to the shedding of the blood than that, I would suggest. Read this lecture on the microcosmic/macrocosmic qualities of the blood, and the spiritual process involving the blood's etherization:

"Just as in the region of the human heart the blood is continually being transformed into etheric substance, a similar process takes place in the Macrocosm." http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19111001p01.html

[Amilius777]

I too believe in the metaphysical act of Christ's shedding of blood Baile.

In fact growing up Catholic unlike other denominations has it's positivies. It is more opened to the mystical and metaphysical.

I believe the ritual religions or sacramental religions: Wicca, Catholicism, and Hinduism are pretty much the earliest forms of religion. Religion is not to be a set of rules and dogma but a ritual and sacrament.

I follow this religion as a sacramental lifestyle. The same as a Neo-pagan or Wiccan would observe their holy days and rituals in conjunct with Nature. Same with me.

I believe that the Cosmic Christ, or in Steiner's viewpoint the Ethereal Christ is the bridge between spirit and matter. And it seems that the microcosmic shedding of Jesus' blood was in unison with the macrocosmic shedding of the Christ-Spirit on the earth. That is perhaps the meaning of Pentecost. Because the spiritual master Jesus shed his own sacred blood on the earth, he was able as the Christ-Spirit to shed the "metaphysical blood" on his apostles or what is called the Holy Spirit.

In fact the yogi Paramhansa Yogananda once said- "When Jesus refers to his body he means the Christ-consciousness, and when he said his blood he meant the Holy Spirit". And by offering up his physical body, he became a light body or a body of Christ. And by shedding his blood for his followers, he became fully one with the Holy Spirit, able to spread that Spirit unto all followers and all future generations who want the Spirit.

[Seawolf]

I disagree that monotheism came after polytheism. There's early Vedic beliefs, and some Hawaiians believe their ancestors were monotheistic before invasion from the Tahitians.

Austrian anthropologist Wilhelm Schmidt had postulated an Urmonotheismus, "original" or "primitive monotheism." in the 1910s.[9] It was objected that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam had grown up in opposition to polytheism as had Greek philosophical monotheism.[2] Furthermore, while belief in a "high god" is not universal, it is found in many parts of Africa and numerous other areas of the world.[10]

[Amilius777]

Oh I am sorry Seawolf. I should have been a bit clearer.

Paganism and polytheism are sadly put together in modern society. What I meant by Paganism I meant "Earth dweller" or "Nature-religion".

That is the original word for Pagan. And people can be monotheistic and be pagan. Its just that when the three Abrahamic religions grew their opposition were polytheistic pagans. If you look at Christ and Francis of Asissi they are pretty much Monotheistic pagans.

In fact the entire Old Testament is filled with a patriarch or Prophet receiving the Holy Spirit via nature. They rarely become enlightened in a temple. It is always under a tree, under the sun, or in the desert. This is because the Holy Spirit, the Divinity of the natural world is the part of God everyone must access first before they reach that Christ-spirit within themselves.

Old saying in Catholicism- "You need to go through Mary to get to her son Jesus". You need to go through nature or Holy Spirit to get to the Son within yourself.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Amilius777

Oh I am sorry Seawolf. I should have been a bit clearer.

Paganism and polytheism are sadly put together in modern society. What I meant by Paganism I meant "Earth dweller" or "Nature-religion".

That is the original word for Pagan. And people can be monotheistic and be pagan. Its just that when the three Abrahamic religions grew their opposition were polytheistic pagans. If you look at Christ and Francis of Asissi they are pretty much Monotheistic pagans.

In fact the entire Old Testament is filled with a patriarch or Prophet receiving the Holy Spirit via nature. They rarely become enlightened in a temple. It is always under a tree, under the sun, or in the desert. This is because the Holy Spirit, the Divinity of the natural world is the part of God everyone must access first before they reach that Christ-spirit within themselves.

Old saying in Catholicism- "You need to go through Mary to get to her son Jesus". You need to go through nature or Holy Spirit to get to the Son within yourself.

ok thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by Amilius777

Oh I am sorry Seawolf. I should have been a bit clearer.

Paganism and polytheism are sadly put together in modern society. What I meant by Paganism I meant "Earth dweller" or "Nature-religion".

That is the original word for Pagan. And people can be monotheistic and be pagan. Its just that when the three Abrahamic religions grew their opposition were polytheistic pagans. If you look at Christ and Francis of Asissi they are pretty much Monotheistic pagans.

This is a radical redefinition of paganism. Paganus is a Latin word meaning country-dweller and was used by urbanite Christians in the early common era to refer to the peasants who lived in the rural areas that remained unchristianized. The word went from being a belittling term that was the ancient equivalent of hick to also being synonymous with nonchristians.

Nearly all non-christian religions have been polytheistic in some fashion. It is true that some Greco-Roman philosophers leaned to a type of monotheism, but it was a tiny minority, and even then, they rarely placed their singular conception of godhead in a language that hearkens to Abrahamic religions. It's also worthy to note that all those who came up with monistic gods tended to be the elite intellectuals - in other words not very "pagan"

There's a lot of romanticism that nature worship is a part of "paganism", but it's not precisely true. Most pagan cultures have been just as ecologically unconscious as many modern societies. Due to the nature of most human civilization being based in an agrarian unindustrialized/urbanized culture, an emphasis on seasons and natural phenomenon are going to play a large part of the religious milieu - not necessarily because there's a mystical conception behind it. but because their survival depends upon the gods (which themselves representing various social and natural phenomenon) being good to them.

In fact the entire Old Testament is filled with a patriarch or Prophet receiving the Holy Spirit via nature. They rarely become enlightened in a temple. It is always under a tree, under the sun, or in the desert. This is because the Holy Spirit, the Divinity of the natural world is the part of God everyone must access first before they reach that Christ-spirit within themselves.

Old saying in Catholicism- "You need to go through Mary to get to her son Jesus". You need to go through nature or Holy Spirit to get to the Son within yourself.

That is true. I think it's because most of the prophets tended to rail against state-religion. Elisha went after Jezebel because she was polluting the nation with her Phoenician gods. Jeremiah preached against the priests and rulers, etc. Once the Hebrew canon began to crystallize prophecy was steadily looked upon with more distaste by the priesthood and scribes due to it's tendency to be dissident. You rarely have a prophet who says "hey guys, things are going great!" When the prophet is rejected by his peers, where can he go? Where the Lord called Moses - the desert.

Whenever a prophet appears in the Bible, it's almost always due to idolatry or some other sin that pollutes Israel, so when the prophet appears the Temple will be the last place he'll want to go if it has Asherah, Ba'al Peor and Dagon idols in it.

Just my ramblings on the subject.

Originally Posted by Seawolf

I disagree that monotheism came after polytheism. There's early Vedic beliefs, and some Hawaiians believe their ancestors were monotheistic before invasion from the Tahitians.

Austrian anthropologist Wilhelm Schmidt had postulated an Urmonotheismus, "original" or "primitive monotheism." in the 1910s.[9] It was objected that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam had grown up in opposition to polytheism as had Greek philosophical monotheism.[2] Furthermore, while belief in a "high god" is not universal, it is found in many parts of Africa and numerous other areas of the world.[10]

Vedic religion was polytheistic though. Indra, Rudra, Agni, Soma, etc. weren't seen as being a singular god. That idea came along with the Upanishads, which are a good deal of time after classical Vedic religion.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Animus27

Vedic religion was polytheistic though. Indra, Rudra, Agni, Soma, etc. weren't seen as being a singular god. That idea came along with the Upanishads, which are a good deal of time after classical Vedic religion.

Currents of monism or monotheism emerge in Vedic India earlier, with e.g. the Nasadiya Sukta. In the Indo-Iranian tradition, the Rigveda exhibits notions of monism, in particular in the comparatively late tenth book, also dated to the early Iron Age, e.g. in the Nasadiya sukta --from wikipedia