Isolation

[LiberatedLotus]

Originally Posted by Starman

I believe in karma, individual karma as well as geographical karma. Germany after World War I might be an example of geographical karma. A karma bought upon the land because of the actions of its’ people. The U.K. had its “troubles” as they were called in Northern Ireland, the violence, destitute, and impoverish-ness, that is going on today in Venezuela, the Middle East, or parts of Africa, among other places.

Americans have lived for a long time in a bubble, untouched on a large scale like other countries, but now such events have come to our shores, by our own hand just as it did in other nations. Karma does not distinguish between political boundaries on a map, but certain areas around the world do have a much higher energy frequency than other places, so it is plausible that certain areas also have a lower energy frequency, and maybe that frequency circulates globally. Just a theory.

I think we have a modicum of free-will within the framework of destiny. Having worked as a mental health counselor, substance abuse counselor, social worker, and medical worker; I know that people do not get better until all of the ingredients come together for that person to get better. When I used to ask alcoholics how come they did not seek treatment sooner, most would reply that they had not reached their bottom yet. Free=will only comes into play when we are able to use free-will. The most successful support programs all emphasize embracing something that is greater than yourself.

Fascinating. If you believe in individual & geographical
karma do you also believe in collective karma on a grand scale?
If one believes in karma how does one factor in personal accountability -
in this lifetime? Change? Vertical advancement? Undeniably, the
state humanity is in within the aggregate is directly
caused by past lives / our predecessors & the current
inhabitants who refuse to see these cycles and
break them. Is soul truly involved or is it mans
ignorance pure & simple?

Often times I do genuinely ask why. Why I even try
any longer, because on the karmic scale humanity
has it coming - destruction = destruction indefinitely
& is immutable. However, I realize the potential for
advancement / vast improvement /
complete liberation for all which continues to be the driving force.

Plausibly, this may be the ushering in of a
"New Age". I suppose the problem I have is
when hypothesis becomes absolutes. When
"spirtualists" do not factor in the other
variables that govern our condition/s
within this current lifetime.
That these toxic conditions have the potential
to be completely eradicated if
these chains & cycles were broken
on a massive scale - it starts with the
individual.

[Nature Grows]

Originally Posted by Starman

Nature Grows, thank you for the compassion and love.

Your welcome starman, thank u for ur posts as well.

[Starman]

LiberatedLotus, we are comparing and contrasting our various perspectives because in no way am I trying to get you to see things my way. For me there is infinite diversity in this creation and that applies to our perspectives as well. I don’t think we all are suppose to see things the same way; if that were true we would all have the same color skin, the same culture, the same height and weight, etc. So that is my qualifier, and now I will share more of my perspective in relation to what you have said in your last post.

Fascinating. If you believe in individual & geographical
karma do you also believe in collective karma on a grand scale?

Yes!

If one believes in karma how does one factor in personal accountability - in this lifetime? Change? Vertical advancement? Undeniably, the state humanity is in within the aggregate is directly
caused by past lives / our predecessors & the current
inhabitants who refuse to see these cycles and
break them. Is soul truly involved or is it mans
ignorance pure & simple?

Everything is subjective but nothing is personal. Just because it happens to us does not mean it is personal. If you believe in the concept of "soul" then the things you have said would make sense, but I believe in the oneness of being. There is only one being at work here. Below the surface, we are all one and individuality is an illusion in my opinion. We effect each other without even having met or spoke to each other.

We are using linear thinking to discuss that which transcends linear thought. Nothing in the universe is what we call it here on Earth. Everyone has their own unique puzzle to unravel, or put together, and the closer I come to my own inner light the more I realize that I am not the do'er. I am a state of being, not a state of doing. Advancement on the path happen for me when I let go, not when I try to force it..

Often times I do genuinely ask why. Why I even try
any longer, because on the karmic scale humanity
has it coming - destruction = destruction indefinitely
& is immutable. However, I realize the potential for
advancement / vast improvement / complete liberation for all which continues to be the driving force.

I sometimes ask why also, but not as frequently as I used to. My antidote is to just try and live in the present, in the moment, because the questions remain the same but from a human perspective, the answers keep changing. I accept what the Desiderata says "the universe is unfolding as it should." The only power I have is to see into myself, and that happens by grace alone. Yes, I do believe in addressing injustice but I try to do it from a place within me where I disappear and unconditional love takes over.

Plausibly, this may be the ushering in of a
"New Age". I suppose the problem I have is
when hypothesis becomes absolutes. When
"spirtualists" do not factor in the other
variables that govern our condition/s
within this current lifetime.
That these toxic conditions have the potential
to be completely eradicated if
these chains & cycles were broken
on a massive scale - it starts with the
individual.

There are really no absolutes; how can there be absolutes when the journey is infinite? Everything comes and goes in cycles, everything travels in a spiral motion. The spiral takes us to greater heights when we learn how to deal with the energy presented in a cycle. A problem is only a problem because we are dealing with it in an ineffective way. In my opinion we are transparent beings, possessed by whatever influences we have invited into ourselves. Self-indulgence is the culprit.

I like the Genesis creation story as told in the Hebrew Kabbalah. Adam and Eve had to leave God consciousness, which is described by this account as the Garden of Eden, in order to procreate. According to this account, it was not a sin, rather it was a necessity. They really did not have to leave God consciousness but they fell in love with the flesh, and lusted after each other. There is more to this version than what I'm sharing here, but my point is that there are no mistakes or accidents; "to everything there is a season." An as a side note; I do believe that spontaneous creation and progressive evolution can coexist. It does not have to be an antagonistic bifurcation. I seek to build bridges, not to take sides.

Peace

[Starman]

A couple of free ebooks I might recommend for download:

1) The Impersonal LIfe
https://www.stillnessspeaks.com/site...rsonallife.pdf

2) The Kybalion
http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/kybalion.pdf

[Nature Grows]

Regarding what i said before about the dog eaters, if anyone is interested there is a amazing guy named Marc Ching who has been doing a lot of work to stop that, and the dog meat trade or at least expose and stop the brutal cruelty of it, just been watching his videos. He pretends to be a business man and goes into the places, films it and then says he needs so many dogs for free as a sample and rescues them he has a team too.. Just felt like sharing.. because this is a good story out of it all, he brings the dogs back to america to some, i wont add anymore to this thread.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by weareunity

Hello Starman and David and all. I believe that everybody needs a certain measure of a sense of personal significance in order to function healthily as a--in our case--human being, emotionally, mentally, socially, and physically. The need is so fundamental in my view that it is actually an affirmation of being, existing. With the good fortune of wise and compassionate guidance by virtue of an understanding of this fundamental need by carers/family/parents/society/ in the formative years this need is met. If this need is not met then the person with that continuing and unfulfilled need will naturally seek others ways of feeling significant. This will often be sought by means of relative measure, that is to say, seeking to become more significant in particular areas than others. The areas chosen are likely to be areas of importance to the peer group within which the individual is obliged to function. Amongst younger persons dominance, popularity, ability to provide, are some examples of possible areas of importance. In the event of not bring able to find this necessary significance, either by being actually unable to do so, or perhaps by having attempts to do so rejected, --quite possibly (and if so ironically) by others of the peer group working on maintaining their own relative significance-- then the disturbed mind in such great need may well come to feel that the only course open is to become significant by becoming infamous by taking the lives of others.

It is indeed unfortunate that the seeking of relative significance has become entrenched though somewhat disguised and indeed lauded as necessary ambition in some business models, and the simple fact that the only way in which true significance can be transferred from one to another is through the way of loving compassion has become to be seen as liberal fluffiness,--unlikely to make a profit and unlikely to move you up the significance ladder within such environment. This entrenchment has tragic consequences of course--as we witness with great sorrow.

Good wishes. petex

Hi weareunity


Thanks for bringing the social aspect into discussion as the psychological/spiritual perspective focuses intensely in the individual subject but with little attention on the larger person that encompasses the entirety of their lives. Most fundamental to this issue is what we generally regard to be a 'person', and in so doing, how we regard others, and through that, have an impression of ourselves, which would be a changing impression throughout the lifetime. The larger picture is how a person exists as the force between what they effect, and are affected by: their culture, status, environment, social-circle, closer relationships, themselves... moving as the same thing.

Originally Posted by Starman

There is absolutely no valid reason for people to go into a school, church, Movie Theater, or other place in America and start shooting other people, bystanders, people in church praying, moviegoers, or students getting an education, because they feel they have been treated badly.

For me this is where many of the Spiritual concepts start falling apart. While you can't see a valid reason there are Spiritual concepts that can validate this, such as Life's Purpose or Karmic Obligations. If there are such things then Souls have chosen this for their experience and others have - through Unconditional Love - agreed to participate. Or at least that's how the belief goes. Some have said that if it wasn't meant to happen then it wouldn't. And 'learn the lessons'???



Not to mention that the person with the gun has a Soul the same as the people in the cross-hairs, and with all that the Soul is supposed to be? How could one Soul allow someone to do something like that, or is the Soul essentially powerless? A powerless Soul is another contradiction in concepts.



If there is a contradiction between what's actually happening and the Spirituality, something has gone badly wrong. Until the conflicts are resolved all that's left is - with respect - spleen-venting against what we really don't seem to understand. What's happening is the result of so many aspects such as history, genetics, society, upbringing, politics, the educational system...... that's often not taken into account, while right and wrong seems to be the only real discussion.

Originally Posted by Starman

This is not a political discussion, and I do not want to make this about guns, but my heart is heavy after hearing, once again, about a school shooting, this time in Santa Fe, Texas. Yesterday I was reading an article about how about 50% or more of Americans feel isolated, lonely, or unappreciated.

Here is a link to that article.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-just-...154520606.html

By this article, it appears that a lot of Americans do not know how to get their emotional needs met. The people who commit these shootings usually have a story about them being isolated, bullied, emotionally devalued, or something similar. It is Spiritual Forums policy to not get into political issues,
such as guns, etc.

If your heart is heavy that makes it a Spiritual discussion, IMHO, but then my definition of 'Spiritual' doesn't seem to be mainstream.

Originally Posted by Starman

My having worked in the healthcare field for about 40-years, I see this as a mental health issue, or a spiritual health issue. We can pray and send out positive vibes to our community, country, and the world, and in my opinion that will definitely help.

But the whole issue of people feeling isolated and blaming others for their isolation, is another matter. I live alone but I do not feel isolated, and do not get lonely. Primarily because of the spiritual connection
I have been blessed to develop over the decades.

And they haven't been as blessed as you. I'm not validating what's going on, just pointing to another perspective. "There but for the Grace of God go I."

Originally Posted by Starman

I feel most people have to go through hell to get to heaven, but a lot of people get stuck in hell. Hell being those horrible things that we have consciously or unconsciously stuffed down inside of ourselves. You have got to face your demons in order to get to heaven.

Tell that to so many Spiritual people.

Originally Posted by Starman

It seems there is more depression and loneliness in America today than I can recall ever. Some blame it on social media and a lack of real face-to-face contact with people. An of course there are a lot of other reason given, but the bottom-line is that people have got to learn how to deal with their own feelings no matter what those feelings may be.

This is probably a throw-back from the Hippie 'Peace and Love, man' generation. Less strictness has led to a generation that can't take responsibility for its own actions and has less fear of consequences. In the UK and Scotland in particular the bad guys act with almost an impunity because the courts give them overly-light sentences. They come from broken homes, their background this and that so feel sorry for them. It's a side effect of tolerance.


Man is a herd animal by choice, and that's been the case for thousands of years. Today a lot of that choice is gone as millions of people have no other option but to live in over-crowded cities. Civilisation doesn't always civilise people. Some have accepted and embraced their fates, which is what was going on even before the time of Christ when people were victims of fate and destiny.



Everybody is disconnected in their own ways, everybody is disconnected from everyone else and for a human that's the scariest of places. For some the isolation is splendid and for others -you and myself included - it can be dealt with but not everyone has that empowerment. Today's society is largely disenfranchised and disempowered, alone and afraid. The perception of being treated badly is another aspect of the cumulative process of becoming even more disempowered and disenfranchised. That is an indictment of society as much as the person who pulls the trigger, because often people are the product of their environment because they can't see any alternatives.


This is the world we have chosen to Live in - if you believe in such things. These are the people we have chosen to surround ourselves with and the things we have chosen to experience. While we can individually crow about our high vibrations and Spiritual acumen, collectively it means very little because the same old consciousness is only wearing different clothes and are in a more modern of context. I may not like it, I may not agree with it and every cell of my being wants to scream that it doesn't have to be this way. Nonetheless, I Honour their Paths just the same.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Starman

Nature Grows, thank you for the compassion and love.

Yummy chocolate!

[Moonglow]

Hello,

I am just going lay my thoughts here.

What tangled web humans have weaved for ourselves.

What is being caught and what is being released.

Does society in general really dare look at the roots? Aware, perhaps, of some of the causes and effects, but are most willing to face them and take the time and courage to address them? Atleast, fully.

To those who feel the pain from the senseless acts of cruelty, my heart and prayers do go out. But, such acts leave a part of me dumbfounded. It screams out why? Then looks and see suffering causing suffering. At the same time compassion rising up among the pain. Two sides bouncing off each other.

Yeah, could say it is such and such fault, problem, ect. Pointing fingers here and there, screaming for vengeance, but has the results of this been reflected time and time again through out history?

What to do? Don't fully know. Felt to express my feelings upon this and in so doing touching upon the anger and pain it brings to me. Perhaps, part of the healing?

It drives me to be more kind and aware of what is spoken and how I act towards others.

It is a flare going up to shed light upon that which has been hidden with in the shadows.

I don't have an answer and apologies if this post comes off as a bit harsh.

There is much to face being human and silence or saying that's just the way it is, just doesn't cut it for me. I know it is what seems results from many factors and some of it is what has been created by society in general.

Not giving up on us and know the human heart still beats strong. If not no one would take notice or care. No one would speak up and no prayers sent.

We have the means and many are loving and kind.

Suffering is a disease, it is a symptom of being in pain, lost and one needs another to reach out and care.

We are not isolated, every act has it affect upon oneself, another, and that which is interacted with. This is not to dismiss the feelings that arise in thinking one is, just a suggestion to look beyond these, if possible.

Suppose need to listen to each other. Not just hear what is being said, but listen.

It confuses me at times.

Thanks Starman for the space to express this.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Starman

Liberated Lotus, I feel there is a difference between a reason and an excuse, not all reasons are excuses, and while there is no excuse for the darkness, there may be a reason for it. Now everyone comes up with their own reasons, and some do view those reasons as excuses. From my metaphysical point of view, this entire creation is but a dance between shadow and light, and the darkness is nothing more than the shadow of the light.

I believe in karma, individual karma as well as geographical karma. Germany after World War I might be an example of geographical karma. A karma bought upon the land because of the actions of its’ people. The U.K. had its “troubles” as they were called in Northern Ireland, the violence, destitute, and impoverish-ness, that is going on today in Venezuela, the Middle East, or parts of Africa, among other places.

Americans have lived for a long time in a bubble, untouched on a large scale like other countries, but now such events have come to our shores, by our own hand just as it did in other nations. Karma does not distinguish between political boundaries on a map, but certain areas around the world do have a much higher energy frequency than other places, so it is plausible that certain areas also have a lower energy frequency, and maybe that frequency circulates globally. Just a theory.

I do not believe that free-will is absolute; in my opinion there are certain things that are destined to happen. Like everyone dies and gives up their human body no matter how much free-will they exert. There are things that have happened serendipitously in my life that had nothing to do with my making a choice or exerting free-will. Hindus believe that we live in the age of Kali, a time of the senses and darkness, on the cosmic clock. After the age of Kali will come the “true age,” or Sat-yuga.

I think we have a modicum of free-will within the framework of destiny. Having worked as a mental health counselor, substance abuse counselor, social worker, and medical worker; I know that people do not get better until all of the ingredients come together for that person to get better. When I used to ask alcoholics how come they did not seek treatment sooner, most would reply that they had not reached their bottom yet. Free-will only comes into play when we are able to use free-will. The most successful support programs all emphasize embracing something that is greater than yourself.

You raise a very valid point when you note that "The most successful support programs all emphasize embracing something that is greater than yourself."

When one surrenders to that "something that is greater than yourself", it seems that free will is no longer the most significant determinant factor in action but that, almost paradoxically, one acts choicelessly/intuitively/effortlessly in the best interests of all (including one's self) without any expectation of a return.