The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I have also studied the Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Ramayana and Mahabharata etc.

I have studied apu nahasapeemapetilon

(because I know that your not insecure enough to take offence)


.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Raziel

I have studied apu nahasapeemapetilon

(because I know that your not insecure enough to take offence)


.

Yeap, one of my favourite episodes of the Simpsons...

When Ned Flanders, Krusty and Apu all help to rescue Homer from his burning house.

In the end, Chief Wiggum says "it's great to see all these different faiths working together....Christian, Jewish and "Miscellaneous" and Apu goes "well, there are only more than a billion of us". lol

[Mr Interesting]

Originally Posted by hallow

You know what I love about this universe! All the different types of people and all the different ways of thinking. I don't think anyone one of us is 100% right or wrong. It's just one big never ending project in the aim for prefection, Like a flower garden. I believe the faults is what gives the garden it's real personally. Guess it's just how you look at the fault of the garden and of others.

Amen Brother!

[Shivani Devi]

So, with Cat working with Autistic people, Naturesflow being a shaman and Raziel with his 'down-to-earth' personality maybe all can help me here.

I am on the spectrum...meaning I have a limited range of interest at the total exclusion of all else....and neurotypical human interaction eludes me.

Fortunately/unfortunately, that limited interest is restricted to esoteric doctrine and Shaivism, with a bit of Quantum Mechanics thrown in for good measure.

Even though I am not really a 'New Age' person, I cannot help but feel I have a bit of 'alien DNA' in the mix.

I just elaborated on some scientific theory:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=121060

All about the properties of Germanium in quantum wormhole tunneling...

Now, when we apply that to the work of Konstantin Raudive in ITC communications and Nikola Tesla in Scalar Wave formation, we come up with this:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...7&postcount=31

Then, there's the work of Daryl Anka channeling Bashar for a free-energy device:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...70&postcount=5

...and of course, I channel Ashtar Sheran, who says that Bashar's instructions were NOT to make a free-energy device at all, but a communications device and wormhole generator...

Which goes to highlight how the Merkabah was akin to an interstellar 'walkie-talkie' and by using associated sigils, wormholes could be opened up.

...and of course, nobody on here will get it...and so I wait...again, for somebody who may.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

I am of a much simpler understanding of spirituality.

People all want the same. Once deprived or cheated out of what we want. We act out..
Those who feel in the right will often judge the acting out behaviour..

As for the deeply ingrained biases and predjudices.
A little history lesson into the origin of the scriptures of any religion, A little understanding or feeling into what life was like back then shows more often than not how those biases and predjudices came about. That said. I feel that every religion also has nuggets of gold within them. Most practitioners are good people who do what the scriptures tell them to and have genuine "spiritual" experiences which help them through their lives..

There's no need to revise any religion whatsoever although a closer look at today's gods of wealth and money may be a good place to start. A lot of people are holding the clarity of authentic love and explain it to what is known to them..

I know looking around often tells a different story.
I can only ask you to look beneath the surface and wish you good luck on the path you set out for your self. From where I am sitting it looks as if you are as in- and ex-clusive in your view of those around as anyone..

Not that that is a bad thing. It's part of being human I guess.
besides everybody does it..

With Love
Eelco

Hello Cat..
Here l am up late for a mo... No time tomorrow so I'll try to reply now.

First, with respect, I don't really resonate with characterisations and labels of individuals. I know for certain that the terms and labels that you applied to me (a total stranger ) do not in any way begin to capture the totality and depth of who I am as a person, nor of my perspectives, nor my thoughts, nor my feelings or intentions. And thus in no way would I attempt to do the same for you, nor for anyone else, nor certainly for loads of specific individuals. Folks are not all the same, although there are some universal aspects to human experience, such as birth and death. In attempting to ascribe traits or characteristics to the individual that they do not claim for themselves, at best we blatantly mischaracterise the individual, and it worse we outright slander or insult them.

That is why I so often discuss at the level of society, culture, and cultural institutions. Whereas we egregiously overstep when we attempt to characterise another individual, we can all speak to humanity collectively and at large, and particularly those aspects of humanity that are more broadly applicable or universal to many of us, such as our society, our culture, and our cultural institutions. Our history and our historical influences on our culture in our society. And so forth.

Humanity are cultural and communal creatures, who live and develop and grow within a collective. We ourselves (or, historically, some powerful subset of us) produce the culture and the society within which we are formed and moulded. And it is right and applicable and true and good IMO to engage and take responsibility for that which we produce which in turn shapes us. The difference is that historically, the movers and shakers of our society in our culture were the elite and the powerful, whereas now for the first time in recorded history, all humanity have a much greater opportunity to bring our voices to the table and to take part in shaping that culture which in turn shapes us.

As far as religious tradition and institutions requiring no change, that is of course an opinion. Change in all aspects of human life and society can and does (and will continue to) happen regardless. The question then is not really so much should something change (although I welcome this new and historic opportunity for greater inclusiveness and refinement, and an expansion of human spiritual growth throughout all its aspects and vehicles, including expansion, revision, and updating of all or nearly all extant religious traditions).

Since this change will occur regardless, IMO it matters less whether we think it should happen (though l welcome the opportunity to engage further in our collective co-creation of our culture and our journey), and more that we simply accept in fact that it will happen. Given that change does and will continue to happen in all areas of human life, the question is really whether or not we have the spiritual maturity to take ownership of our own journeys, both individually and as a collective. Within a framework of manifest authentic love, i.e., lovingkindness and equanimity in the highest good of one and all equally. IMO.

Peace and blessings
7L

[hallow]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

So, with Cat working with Autistic people, Naturesflow being a shaman and Raziel with his 'down-to-earth' personality maybe all can help me here.

I am on the spectrum...meaning I have a limited range of interest at the total exclusion of all else....and neurotypical human interaction eludes me.

Fortunately/unfortunately, that limited interest is restricted to esoteric doctrine and Shaivism, with a bit of Quantum Mechanics thrown in for good measure.

Even though I am not really a 'New Age' person, I cannot help but feel I have a bit of 'alien DNA' in the mix.

I just elaborated on some scientific theory:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=121060

All about the properties of Germanium in quantum wormhole tunneling...

Now, when we apply that to the work of Konstantin Raudive in ITC communications and Nikola Tesla in Scalar Wave formation, we come up with this:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...7&postcount=31

Then, there's the work of Daryl Anka channeling Bashar for a free-energy device:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...70&postcount=5

...and of course, I channel Ashtar Sheran, who says that Bashar's instructions were NOT to make a free-energy device at all, but a communications device and wormhole generator...

Which goes to highlight how the Merkabah was akin to an interstellar 'walkie-talkie' and by using associated sigils, wormholes could be opened up.

...and of course, nobody on here will get it...and so I wait...again, for somebody who may.

I so know what you mean by feeling alien! I also work with disabled people, have for about 20 years. Most I learned I learned from them. Hahaha. I enjoy answer questions of any kind.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by hallow

I so know what you mean by feeling alien! I also work with disabled people, have for about 20 years. Most I learned I learned from them. Hahaha. I enjoy answer questions of any kind.

Thank you.

I'll be going into "Shivani silent/stealth mode' pretty soon, because I've been drinking from the 'wellspring'.

https://www.youtube.com/user/FlowingWakefulness/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/mrcraigholliday/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheSpir...atalyst/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/BuddhaAtTheGasPump/videos

There's a lot to keep me busy for a while there and I'm in 'absorption mode" rather than 'talking mode' right now.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello Cat..
First, with respect, I don't really resonate with characterisations and labels of individuals. I know for certain that the terms and labels that you applied to me.

Not sure what label you are talking about here. I know full well that the being that makes up 7 stars is broader than what we see here. That said I have no problem anymore labeling people as I see them, with the caveat that i know I am labeling just a small portion of labeled person.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

That is why I so often discuss at the level of society, culture, and cultural institutions. Whereas we egregiously overstep when we attempt to characterise another individual, we can all speak to humanity collectively and at large, and particularly those aspects of humanity that are more broadly applicable or universal to many of us, such as our society, our culture, and our cultural institutions. Our history and our historical influences on our culture in our society. And so forth.

Ah I see. Well I feel that talking about groups of people (socially, culturaly, ethnically) opens a whole other can of worms.. So I try to stay away from doing just that.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Humanity are cultural and communal creatures, who live and develop and grow within a collective. We ourselves (or, historically, some powerful subset of us) produce the culture and the society within which we are formed and moulded. And it is right and applicable and true and good IMO to engage and take responsibility for that which we produce which in turn shapes us. The difference is that historically, the movers and shakers of our society in our culture were the elite and the powerful, whereas now for the first time in recorded history, all humanity have a much greater opportunity to bring our voices to the table and to take part in shaping that culture which in turn shapes us.

I disagree both on the Humans as cultural and communal creatures as well as on the opportunity we appear to be presented with. We are still being played, lied to and fooled by the so called elite. We do not posess a shred of knowledge that " they" didn't want us to have. (divide and conquer) as well as the (problem, public opinion, solution) strategy.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

As far as religious tradition and institutions requiring no change, that is of course an opinion. Change in all aspects of human life and society can and does (and will continue to) happen regardless. The question then is not really so much should something change (although I welcome this new and historic opportunity for greater inclusiveness and refinement, and an expansion of human spiritual growth throughout all its aspects and vehicles, including expansion, revision, and updating of all or nearly all extant religious traditions).

I agree of course that traditional institutions of most religions could use a good mirror and some changes. This does not mean though that most values that are held dear by members of said tradition aren't valuable. Babies, and wash water comes to mind.

With Love
Eelco

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Humanity are cultural and communal creatures, who live and develop and grow within a collective. We ourselves (or, historically, some powerful subset of us) produce the culture and the society within which we are formed and moulded. And it is right and applicable and true and good IMO to engage and take responsibility for that which we produce which in turn shapes us. The difference is that historically, the movers and shakers of our society in our culture were the elite and the powerful, whereas now for the first time in recorded history, all humanity have a much greater opportunity to bring our voices to the table and to take part in shaping that culture which in turn shapes us.

It's interesting that neuroscience is thinking this way now, the brain as a social instrument. The fact there are no neurons directly connecting two or more brains doesn't exclude communication in a myriad of ways many occurring before they ever enter the conscious mind through signals we unwittingly or otherwise give each other. Several times now I've encountered "across the social synapse" which seems to point to our sense receptors.

From my semiotics background I've long felt we construct our realities from interpretation of signs that bombard us every moment of our wakeful (and who knows? dream) lives, so I seem to be on this wavelength.

pax tecum

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Not sure what label you are talking about here. I know full well that the being that makes up 7 stars is broader than what we see here. That said I have no problem anymore labeling people as I see them, with the caveat that i know I am labeling just a small portion of labeled person.

I agree to disagree, as I find labeling of others to be offensive, invasive, and controlling...and extremely patronising. IMO it is also typically perceived by many as hostile and aggressive, to incite and antagonise others at a personal level.

Ah I see. Well I feel that talking about groups of people (socially, culturaly, ethnically) opens a whole other can of worms.. So I try to stay away from doing just that.

IMO, whether we do or don't care to acknowledge it, the fact that humanity are social and cultural creatures simply is.

Every human being is raised within a society and a culture and forms opinions and worldviews that are framed by their social and cultural paradigm. We look to our traditions and accumulated knowledge simply as we go about our daily activities. We all either benefit or suffer as a whole, or within strategically disadvantaged groups, as a result of what has come before and also of where we are at the mo.

Humanity cannot survive (infants die of "failure to thrive" if fed but not touched) and our brains fail to properly develop if we are not immersed within a language and culture (feral children isolated beyond a point cannot properly develop language or socialization skills and can remain permanently challenged). That is, we cannot live and are not fully human without the key engagement and present of our fellow human beings.

None of these observations nor this wisdom came from me, LOL, but I acknowledge the broad truths of who we are as communal, social beings, as well as the fact that we cannot learn from our past nor our present, nor how our past connects us to our present, without reflection and study and discourse on these matters.

I disagree both on the Humans as cultural and communal creatures as well as on the opportunity we appear to be presented with. We are still being played, lied to and fooled by the so called elite. We do not posess a shred of knowledge that " they" didn't want us to have. (divide and conquer) as well as the (problem, public opinion, solution) strategy.

The fact of humanity being communal is not up for dispute, IMO, according to all known aspects of our reality

Though yes, I agree regarding the domination of the elite historically up through the present day, and the map of human history at any point in time connects this theme quite clearly throughout history.

When I say we now have greater opportunity to participate and co-create all the social and cultural trappings within which we are raised and formed and moulded, what I mean is that now that we are aware of our past and current reality -- now that we are waking up to our power and our voices -- well then, now and going forward, things can be different. Finally.

I agree of course that traditional institutions of most religions could use a good mirror and some changes. This does not mean though that most values that are held dear by members of said tradition aren't valuable. Babies, and wash water comes to mind.

With Love
Eelco

Yes, I've said many times over the years and recently that many find great comfort in their traditions, no matter how deeply flawed those traditions may be. And I also acknowledge that there are many key universal truths which are captured within many traditions. These traditions provide a known and ready vehicle to convey the basic idea or concept of these universal truths.

They cannot substitute for the need for everyone to walk the path and for everyone's own direct experience or illumination...but I recognise many are not going to be at any given place or experience any given illumination in any one (or many) lifetimes.

And thus, and IMO, the real purpose and sole or primary benefit that most traditions give most lay persons is simply a set of key proscriptive guidelines on how to behave decently, courteously, and with kindness toward one another. Values learnt here (within a religious tradition, or oerhaps also within a larger culture) which translate in a universal sense, for the highest good of one and all, equally, are IMO those which are right-aligned with centre and with Spirit. Transmission of right-aligned universal values is IMO what humanity can and should do within its culture and within any specific religious traditions that exist.

It is to that primary and universal aspect that I speak. It's time for an upgrade. It's like when at the societal level, churchgoing white men got the vote in most countries in the West. It was a huge step forward, including the male commoner and not just the male landed gentry. Democratic institutions could finally be supported by the majority that would be needed to turn the tide, and I feel that was a key moment in the spiritual journey of humanity on earth, for certain. But further revisions were and still are needed for the remaining 9/10 of humanity or what have ye, eh? The women (50%) all round the globe, and all the rest of the non-Western world (the 90%). We've made some inroads...spotty and mainly some selectve low-hanging fruit, mainly whatever fell to the ground already Loads more to do. And this is IMO absolutely spiritual work...the fruit of our own hearts and minds, the fruit of our own hard-won labour. The other side of that is without our conscious choice to engage and work together, without bringing our voices to the table, we can't impact our reality and we'll not even be heard. Instead, those others who have steered the ship thus far will reign freely and will continue to do as they've always done.

IMO viewed from the heart, in spirit, all that which remains misaligned is just obstruction and misdirection, from us to us. The smelly little gift that keeps on giving, because as we bring clarity and authentic love to each moment, that smell points us to dissonance and misalignment, to where we need to speak and take ownership.

Peace & blessings
7L