Free Will vs Divine Ordaination

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers."

http://www.worldofproverbs.com/2012/...-there-is.html

i always thought it rather sad... or curious... or funny... that Donovan had such
trouble getting people to join in with his sing-a-long.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by muffin

Good afternoon horace

I would stick with what you feel.

Your putting words to what you see, yet you can feel energy and vibration and I would say you would have as much trouble explaining that one too.

Good afternoon to you muffin.
explaining something completely unfamiliar to a person might be a hard task,
but speaking of familiar things ought not be a hardship.
most of us know the discomfort of a headache, or the joy of opening
Christmas presents as examples.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

http://www.worldofproverbs.com/2012/...-there-is.html

i always thought it rather sad... or curious... or funny... that Donovan had such
trouble getting people to join in with his sing-a-long.

lol yeah ..maybe the audience couldn't follow the words ..
Strange also how that guy in your Avatar..Jimmy Stewart is it ? appears in this video at 10.53.. i didn't know he changed profession. He would be about 135 years old in this perhaps ? lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h9EDjHpqFI

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Thanks. I just posted to 'Within Silence' about action of 'good' and 'evil' to try and expand the the topic of 'Free Will and Determinism'. As i said it seems like the question of 'good' and 'evil' is never far away from the topic of 'Free Will and Determinism'. If within the liberated state there is no such difficulty or question of 'good' and 'evil' , 'free will', 'determinism' as was suggested by Within Silence's teacher then there is no difficulty but some philosophies such as madyamika buddhism have broken it down into 'Relative' and 'Absolute' reality, almost some kind of seperation so we can function in a 'moral way' ? Hey it's difficult to write about this ..and also the question has gone kinda cold for me ..it was one that came up a couple of weeks ago ? Any ideas ?

The dream analogy has always been helpful to me during meditations on this subject. (I've practiced conscious sleep meditation for years now and it allows one to watch dream formation from start to finish.)

In a dream, especially a nightmare, there is a relative reality that seems so real and includes the "whys" and the "free will" questions that are being raised here on this site. In a dream, once one connects to the dreamer, the questions of free will and determinism become completely irrelevant and obviously so.

In the "waking state", if one can transcend the little mental-prison separatist ego even momentarily, one gets a glimpse of something where the questions of "free will" and "determinism" similarly become irrelevant. One can directly experience that state when one abides in pure thought-free awareness regardless of how brief that glimpse is.This defies description in words and one must simply "just do it".

However, despite direct experiences (real or hallucinatory as others may judge), that's just my sense of what this is all about. Feel free to question or challenge it.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The dream analogy has always been helpful to me during meditations on this subject. (I've practiced conscious sleep meditation for years now and it allows one to watch dream formation from start to finish.)

In a dream, especially a nightmare, there is a relative reality that seems so real and includes the "whys" and the "free will" questions that are being raised here on this site. In a dream, once one connects to the dreamer, the questions of free will and determinism become completely irrelevant and obviously so.

In the "waking state", if one can transcend the little mental-prison separatist ego even momentarily, one gets a glimpse of something where the questions of "free will" and "determinism" similarly become irrelevant. One can directly experience that state when one abides in pure thought-free awareness regardless of how brief that glimpse is.This defies description in words and one must simply "just do it".

However, despite direct experiences (real or hallucinatory as others may judge), that's just my sense of what this is all about. Feel free to question or challenge it.

Yes, I would agree with all of what you say here. The waking dream is often one i've had a chance to contemplate perhaps even penetrate and my realisations if i may call them that are nearly always profound and freeing. I think the universe has often pushed me along in this direction. I bought a very nice Zen Calligraphy in a charity shop one time and it contains two basic symbols, one of them, shaped like the letter 'J'. I thought it very aesthetically pleasing to look at but when i found out that the Letters said the word 'Dream' in Japanese it jolted me in a very nice way of course. So thank you for your interesting post i found it useful, inspiring. Even to contemplate waking from this dream is enlivening. Interesting stuff.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

We have been discussing lately the idea of free will and destiny and was wondering if anyone has any views on this very interesting subject ?

It is an illusion to think we have a choice, even though we choose.

In a universe or existence where only pure consciousness exists and I am somehow part of that, even though it has no 'parts' because it is whole within itself...where is this individuality let alone any individual will?

If we are to assume that everything exists in a non-dual state, then free-will falls in the realms of duality in that we either 'choose God' or 'choose ignorance' and while that may appear to be the case on the surface, the 'choice' isn't there anyway - it doesn't exist.

I wonder if an all powerful, omnipresent Deity would not create a circumstance without knowing how it was going to turn out...how the story was going to end...if past. present and future occurred simultaneously...

When we surrender our will, was it ever really separate from divine will? It's only our minds, our thoughts which makes it so.

[r6r6]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

...In a universe or existence where only pure consciousness exists...

Some stated this kinda of concept a few weeks ago.. "pure consciousness".

Lets ask 100 people and see how many differrent definitions of what this alledged pure consciousness may or may not be. imho

r6

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Some stated this kinda of concept a few weeks ago.. "pure consciousness".

Lets ask 100 people and see how many differrent definitions of what this alledged pure consciousness may or may not be. imho

r6

It's just a conceptual term for the advaitic concept of Brahman Absolute. I prefer to use it in the Hindu vedic sense of the word as 'chitta' (consciousness) or 'chit-ananda' which means consciousness-bliss. We can even say 'Divine/Holy White Light' here or maybe Unconditional Love or D:" All of the above".

[r6r6]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Some stated this kinda of concept a few weeks ago.. "pure consciousness".
Lets ask 100 people and see how many differrent definitions of what this alledged pure consciousness may or may not be. imho
r6

Most pure = non-tainted i.e. energyless, ergo has not charge, no spin no color no taste and is not occupied space nor non-occupied space.

Ex metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts are energyless, abstract concepts that have no charge, no color, no taste, no sound, no spin, etc....

Consciousness = otherness = twoness = awareness. Consciousness occupies space and has interactive relations with various other occupied spaces.

2) Physical/energy ( observed time ) ergo fermions and bosons occupy space.

3) gravity ( ),..occupied space

4) dark energy )(....occupied space

..past < ( * I * ) < future....I-verse

............( * / * )..................spirit-of-intent

............( * | * )........2D slice-of-time ^v

Pure carbon substance is a substance that has no other elements in it except carbon in it.

Ex diamonds, graphite and Bucky balls.

r6

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Most pure = non-tainted i.e. energyless, ergo has not charge, no spin no color no taste and is not occupied space nor non-occupied space.

Ex metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts are energyless, abstract concepts that have no charge, no color, no taste, no sound, no spin, etc....

Consciousness = otherness = twoness = awareness. Consciousness occupies space and has interactive relations with various other occupied spaces.

2) Physical/energy ( observed time ) ergo fermions and bosons occupy space.

3) gravity ( ),..occupied space

4) dark energy )(....occupied space

..past < ( * I * ) < future....I-verse

............( * / * )..................spirit-of-intent

............( * | * )........2D slice-of-time ^v

Pure carbon substance is a substance that has no other elements in it except carbon in it.

Ex diamonds, graphite and Bucky balls.

r6

...ah, you remembered the bucky balls! C80!

Pure means untainted in this regard.