Anattā (no self)

[sky]

Originally Posted by running

the sound sutra hits it one way. for a synergistic effect and to keep one in the body this is another sutra i do

the running pranayama sutra. can be done walking.

you breath in deep from the stomach and blow out hard from the nose. the objective is to blow the energy straight out from the top of the head. i do this on each stride swapping back and forth. i do this because im using my whole body, breath, and mind to clear energies from my stomach out through the top of the head. i run with my back straight and my head straight. that way the path is straight up.

this opens up the channels and helps clear through the obstructions. also makes the stomach very strong, so the back is strong. plus of course all kimds of physical benefits. in addition to sense your hitting the lower chakras to very good it helps ground one and keep one in the body.

anyways this is a couple things i have found to work best for me. not sure how well for anyone else.

I am visualizing you running with steam coming out of your head and your hair standing up on end

I know very little about Chakras etc: but moving energy around , breath body/body in a body is something I do practice.
Why do you blow the energy out and not just circulate it around to clear the obstructions ?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by janielee

Yes, universal Dhamma...

What I do think is there are different levels of realization and insight amongst practitioners.

Some of the most astute and genuine ones will not be arguing over interpretations, but you can hear and sense the reality of their insight through their lives and words.

I realize from reading these forums how many different ways people can interpret Buddha's words. But, like most things, from meditation, and with some genuine guidance and advice, I think many will do well

As a lotus blooms....

I'm grateful for this conversation. It's also going to force me to do some reading now.

Namaste,

JL

Yes practice brings the realisations called insights which amount to wisdom, and also enables the purification and extinguishing of accumulated sankaras, and pure love emerges from the endless depth of infinite outpouring to permeate the actuality of one's of day to day life.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by django

I've been following this conversation which has been interesting, and have been doing my own research on 'standard' Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. I wonder if the issue is the way in which energy is being addressed. Is it that there is a Buddhist way, and there is a 'seeking an energy high' way.

In Tibetan Buddhism Vajrayana (the energy path) is usually practised after the realisations of renunciation, bodhicitta and emptiness.

In the non-Buddhist way people seek out positive energy shifts and surges via intensive yoga or other forms of physical exertion to induce them, or energy manipulation methods derived from qi gong or other systems. They may use drugs or other artificial methods. In effect, they get high on energy, and, over time, are likely to experience many of the problems normally associated with addiction, which is antithetical to Buddhism. Maybe they feel like they can never get enough energy, so the Buddhist aim is never realised.

That is a pretty good description of the pitfalls of such fascination.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Gem, hello there. First, at the broadest level, I agree this is a worthy goal. To move beyond craving or aversion. This focus tends to promote equanimity, or at least that is my understanding and experience.

Yes. Equanimity is the absence of that dynamic of craving and aversion.

I just want to make a few comments for your input/response. Just as they are connected here. Disclaimer being I don't consider myself a rigourous adherent to any particular tradition, but would name at least a few as being central or relevant.

I don't follow any tradition. I simply studied Buddhist meditation in the formal sense. People from all kinds of traditions, religions, backgrounds, including atheists come to learn the art. We have no interest in conversions and other forms of ritual. Our principles are the enlightenment in you, the laws of nature and harmonious social cohesion. Our virtues are truthfulness, kindness, compassion, generosity and metta. These are universal - not sectarian - it regards all human beings.

I recognise that craving is not something that I resonate strongly with. However, aversion is a stronger one for me. Meaning, my lived experience is such that I recognise my obstacles relate more to aversion and less to craving. That is, I need to exert myself more to engage and less to avoid.

In Buddhist thinking, aversion and desire are not thought of as two different things. In English, 'craving' pertains to 'what you want' only. But in the Pali language craving (tanha) pertains to the dynamic tension between aversion and desire. Where there is desire there is also aversion, and vice versa. That dynamic is 'craving'.

To open myself and expand to fill the places of feeling that I have tended to avoid in this latest phase of the journey and to some degree all along. Not that it's what I want to do. It's more about recognising that balance where equanimity is seated.

In the practice, it's truth. We need not desire because the truth is 'as it is'. We have a tremendous ardency for the truth, so our pursuit ends and we investigate 'what is' very deeply, particularly the truth of ourselves. Old wounds and accumulation of 'sankara' or 'obstacles' are not artifacts of aversion, but true of ourselves and can not be denied, and the meditation enables us to become conscious of all this, all habitual destructiveness, the whole way we generate our misery, and we become keenly acute to the slightest of our reactions that distract and disturb the fine and delicate balance of mind - precisely as you say - It's 'recognising that balance where equanimity is seated'.

However...I also recognise that for others, the orientation to craving is equally strong. Perhaps far stronger, as a rule. For them, the whole of the practice of equanimity may tend to more easily balance them.

That craving people have for what is being called energy is equal to the the aversion they have to what is called obstacles, and they do not know that their volition generates sankara rather than extinguishes sankara, and all our lives we have been reacting in craving in aversion generating a massive pile of sankaras. Then we realise, so this is what I've been doing all my life, and we stop - craving ceases, volition ends, and the generation of sankara is over. We have stopped craving resisting clinging avoiding pursuing and so on, so the old sankara are 'let free' and they start to rise from the shadows into the light of conscious awareness, where the pass away. The old pile is now passing away, and no longer is anything new being added. Like you stop adding new wood to a fire, and the old wood burns away. In this way all the old sankara eventually expire. But one has to be strong in their equanimity to withstand the clearing process because it's resolving deepest wounds. Hence one cultivates that equalibrium of equanimity, for the degree of purification depends on that stable balance.

For me, I find it's the extension of lovingkindness that pushes me toward the middle, because in the being and doing, I tend to open or expand my heart centre more. I see many avoid both of these practices, but I also recognise very readily where one comes easier (at a certain point, anyway). And where we may tend to get too comfortable or a bit lazy.

For myself, it's far easier not to engage much or open myself emotionally, so that's what needs a bit of balancing. At least at this point in my life. Perhaps at an earlier point, equanimity was harder to find, requiring a fair bit more wisdom and circumspection that I'd yet gained. And also I note that the place of balance is shifting and seemingly paradoxically directs or guides us to live in a place of movement, uncertainty, and vulnerability, IOW of expanding the heart centre -- in order to be and do equanimity. Whereas we see balance and groundedness is certainly needed to be and do lovingkindness in any sustained way.

Personally, I do not suggest metta practice until the wellspring of love begins to bubble up... Until then stick with the mindful cultivation of equanimity both in formal meditation practice and also with every and all experiences of daily life. Every moment is opportunity to valuable to be wasted. Keep balance, let emotion be the way it wants to be, but recognise reactivity that disturbs your presence of mind. It's an important distinction I'm making, because emotion in itself isn't disturbing - one can be a still centre in a severe emotional storm - but it's the reaction, you see, to be adverse to a rough emotion or to crave another kind of emotion... and by just being there and leaving it to be as it is... well, all that arises soon passes and there's no way around that truth.


That will enable purification, not faster because you feel craving and want more, but at the pace which nature has it (which can be faster than you'd like)... you are merely aware... nature works its own way... and when the metta arises in the heart area, then you can't not radiate loving kindness.

2)

I definitely agree in the broadest sense that it's all about equanimity. And lovingkindness. As two aspects of the same thing, for me I wouldn't say either is above the other. It's all about the balance of these things, which I often refer to in sum as authentic love.

However, it's important to clarify that for me, these are both a being and a doing. Not a momentary feeling. There is a sublime joy of being/doing, but it is in no way a fleeting feeling.

That said, I do think that there is a subtle and various experience of energy that may accompany the being and doing of authentic love, which some folks may experience more profoundly. That is, it may be more transformative or illuminating for some than others. It may be of little importance or even a misdirection for some, or even for many. Certainly, if fetishised, that could be a real problem. But much of it may simply be individual spiritual variation on the journey.

I think of it like meditation or many other aspects of what we might call our practice or our journey. For some, it is a tedious or difficult exercise, but nonetheless some benefits seem to be gained in hindsight. For others, it is truly transformative and they find it absolutely central to their day-to-day life afterwards.

Ok, it's bound to be very difficult - the most arduous of all things... but it is so clear within oneself that it is 'right', and again, by being completely truthful, you can't not do it.

Meaning, I absolutely do see your point. And in the main, I tend to agree. However, I'm one of those folks that does see my energetic work as being as much a part of me as my meditation. They are not separate, actually. I am also not given to cravings much, so that too may be a key part of all this.

What are your thoughts?

Peace & blessings
7L

Well, I'm a little extreme, so when people meditate and they are doing anything - visualising, controlling breath, mantra, or other self-generated activity, I'm like, OK, stop doing that and be aware of 'what is'. That's really what I think, but I don't mean it as advice or anything.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes. Equanimity is the absence of that dynamic of craving and aversion.






I don't follow any tradition. I simply studied Buddhist meditation in the formal sense. People from all kinds of traditions, religions, backgrounds including athiests come to learn the art. We have no interest in conversions and other forms of ritual. Our principles are the enlightenment in you, the laws of nature and harmonious social cohesion. Our virtues are truthfulness, kindness, compassion, generosity and metta. These are universal - not sectarian - it regards all human beings.



[color=Blue][b]


In Buddhist thinking these aversion and desire are not though of as two different things. In English, 'craving' pertains to 'what you want' only. But in the Pali language craving (tanha) pertains to the dynamic tension between aversion and desire. Where there is desire there is also aversion, and vice versa. That dynamic is 'craving'.





In the practice, it's truth. We need not desire because the truth is 'as it is'. We have a tremendous ardency for the truth, so our pursuit ends and we investigate 'what is' very deeply, particularly the truth of ourselves. Old wounds and accumulation of 'sankara' or 'obstacles' are not artifacts of aversion, but true of ourselves and can not be denied, and the meditation enables us to become conscious of all this, all habitual destructiveness, the whole way we generate our misery, and we become keenly acute to the slightest of our reactions that distract and disturb the fine and delicate balance of mind - precisely as you say - It's 'recognising that balance where equanimity is seated'.




That craving people have for what is being called energy is equal the aversion they have to what is called obstacles, and they do not know that thier volition generated sankara rather than extinguishes sankara, and all our lives we have been reacting in craving in aversion generating a missive pile of sankaras. The we realise, so this is what I've been doing all my life, and we stop, craving ceases, volition ends, and the generation of sankara ends. We have stopped craving resisting clinging and so on, so the old sankara are 'let free' and they start to rise from the shadows into the light of conscious awareness, where the pass away. The old pile is nor passing away and no longer is anything being added, and in this way all the old sankara eventually expire. But one has to be strong in their equanimity to withstand the clearing process because it's real tough at times with deepest and worst of our traumas. Hence on cultivates that equalibrium, for the degree of purification depends on that stable balance.





Personally, I do not suggest metta practice until the wellspring of love begins to bubble up... usually felt like love in the chest area initially. Untill then just stick with the mindful cultivation of equanimity both in formal meditation practice and also in regards to every and all experiences of daily life. Every moment is opportunity to valuable to be wasted. Keep that balance, let emotion be the way it wants to be, but recognise reactivity that disrupts balance. It's an important distinction I'm making, because emotion in itself isn't disturbing, and one can be a still centre in a severe emotional storm, but it's the reaction, you see, to be adverse to an emotion or to crave an emotion....... and by just being there and leaving it to be as it is... well all that arises passes and there's no way around that truth.


That will enable purification to process, not faster because you feel greedy and want more, but at the pace with nature has it... you are merely aware... and nature works its own way... and when the metta arises in the heart area then you can't not radiate it.

[color=Blue]
[b]


Ok, it's bound to be very difficult - the most arduous of all things... but it is so clear within oneself that it is 'right', and again, by being completely truthful, you can't not do it.






Well, I'm a little extreme, so when people meditate and they are doing anything, visualising, controlling breath, mantra, or other self generated activity, I'm like, ok stop doing that - cease all volitional activity completely and be aware of 'what is'. That's really what I think, but I don't mean it as advice or anything.

I’m aware through my own process that reaching this point your speaking of in your last paragraph was the final phase of all those various practices I choose to clear and release obstructions in the mind/body. So now, I’m aware, the ways of other paths are a means to attaining to the awareness and practice from here on in, through this means.
I remember realising that everything I used previously no longer could support the truth of myself. When you eventually meet yourself and see that staying present with what is, only requires you to be present with, what ever it is your activated by, engaged with. there it becomes a conscious lived moment to moment awareness. The story of what my body is being and going no longer stands as to what it means and what way it should be labelled as itself just moving through all that is revealed.
I think the illusion can be dictated by what we label our inner process as being.
Where for me, the realisation point of ending all that, was critical to moving into a more spontaneous awareness, that everything with full attention and presence can move you through things fast. You are not interrupting the flow with ideas, your becoming this or it means that.
By taking the emphasis off the external labelling you simply direct yourself back to the truth of what is as yourself aware and witnessing.
I’m conscious right now of my heart swells.
Noticing the sounds and sights of nature and how those intimate moments naturally can open the heart.
Nothing sought, just the awareness I’m moved and opened by such moments that are part of every day life.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Mindfulness, lovingkindness, equanimity are all an result of energy and silence or even stages.

Mindfulness is when one has realized a little bit of silence and are able to observe their thoughts. In or out of meditation. With increased silence one is able to realize that those thoughts are flows of energy.

Resting in the flows brings clarity or as you named it equanimity.

Loving Kindness is also a result of clarity as it is often understood. In Buddhism Compassion comes from the realization of the void.

While you think energy is just a little thing, the tantra teachings understand that everything, your body, the desk, the world is all energy. That consciousness is has 3 aspects. Void, Clarity and Energy.

Buddhism is non dual, based on the view expressed by many of the members in this thread. How do you get to non dual with mindfulness? You don't.. mindfulness is a stage in ones practice.

In the interests of what is actually said about mindfulness according to Buddhist teaching, the satipatthana (which is the central discourse on mindfulness) explicitly says it is the way to nirvana.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

I’m aware through my own process that reaching this point your speaking of in your last paragraph was the final phase of all those various practices I choose to clear and release obstructions in the mind/body. So now, I’m aware, the ways of other paths are a means to attaining to the awareness and practice from here on in, through this means.

Yea, other paths and practices will come to end and this will be all that's left. Seems like Buddha cut to the chase .

I remember realising that everything I used previously no longer could support the truth of myself. When you eventually meet yourself and see that staying present with what is, only requires you to be present with, what ever it is your activated by, engaged with. there it becomes a conscious lived moment to moment awareness. The story of what my body is being and going no longer stands as to what it means and what way it should be labelled as itself just moving through all that is revealed.
I think the illusion can be dictated by what we label our inner process as being.
Where for me, the realisation point of ending all that, was critical to moving into a more spontaneous awareness, that everything with full attention and presence can move you through things fast. You are not interrupting the flow with ideas, your becoming this or it means that.

I found by 'mere awareness' everything accelerated to top speed, and at that point anyone is 'reduced' to trying to maintain their balance of mind lest they lose all sanity.


One day I became who I already was, as the 'other one' became fully exposed. It didn't like being found out and tried all the old tricks, but I recognise that one.

By taking the emphasis off the external labelling you simply direct yourself back to the truth of what is as yourself aware and witnessing.

Yep. That's pretty much what I do each time I notice I've lost the plot

I’m conscious right now of my heart swells.
Noticing the sounds and sights of nature and how those intimate moments naturally can open the heart.
Nothing sought, just the awareness I’m moved and opened by such moments that are part of every day life.

Yea, that sounds so serene. Not like me, with my head all in the online

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yea, other paths and practices will come to end and this will be all that's left. Seems like Buddha cut to the chase .






I found by 'mere awareness' everything accelerated to top speed, and at that point anyone is 'reduced' to trying to maintain their balance of mind lest they lose all sanity.


One day I became who I already was, as the 'other one' became fully exposed. It didn't like being found out and tried all the old tricks, but I recognise that one.





Yep. That's pretty much what I do each time I notice I've lost the plot









Yea, that sounds so serene. Not like me, with my head all in the online

Im turning over a new leaf. The autumn toned one..haha actually im disciplining myself to more sleep before midnight. It feels good.

And yes I always say the order is irrelevsnt in how you reach Buddha’s way, it just makes life more interesting in the creative sourcing that is all.

And if you’ve done most of the hard work to reach it, it becomes a kinda let down really. Lol because you see the simplicity of it all. Once the heavy loads lifted and you see you in all that jazzy stuff, at least you don’t have to get bogged down by all the teachings. For someone like me, too much information doesn’t translate. But if I’ve understood it via experience, that makes for a more interesting appraisal and more aware relationship of myself to all that. Then I see.

Then I can relate, understand it.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

I've been following this conversation which has been interesting, and have been doing my own research on 'standard' Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. I wonder if the issue is the way in which energy is being addressed. Is it that there is a Buddhist way, and there is a 'seeking an energy high' way.

In Tibetan Buddhism Vajrayana (the energy path) is usually practised after the realisations of renunciation, bodhicitta and emptiness.

In the non-Buddhist way people seek out positive energy shifts and surges via intensive yoga or other forms of physical exertion to induce them, or energy manipulation methods derived from qi gong or other systems. They may use drugs or other artificial methods. In effect, they get high on energy, and, over time, are likely to experience many of the problems normally associated with addiction, which is antithetical to Buddhism. Maybe they feel like they can never get enough energy, so the Buddhist aim is never realised.

Can you show a reference to this? In Tibetan Buddhism Vajrayana (the energy path) is usually practised after the realisations of renunciation, bodhicitta and emptiness.In Tibetan Buddhism Vajrayana (the energy path) is usually practised after the realisations of renunciation, bodhicitta and emptiness.

Also, what you are describing above is adrenaline. That is not energy that any tradition is talking about.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

In the interests of what is actually said about mindfulness according to Buddhist teaching, the satipatthana (which is the central discourse on mindfulness) explicitly says it is the way to nirvana.

Again, you don't understand what is being taught in the satipatthana.

Here let me help you.

Satipatthana (Pali) is often translated as “foundation of mindfulness,” which gives the impression that it refers to an object of meditation. This impression is reinforced when you see the four satipatthanas listed as body, feelings, mind and mental qualities.
But if you look at the early Buddhist texts, you find that satipatthana is a process, a way of establishing (upatthana) mindfulness (sati); hence the compound term. When the texts define the compound they give not a list of objects but four formulas describing an activity. Here’s the first formula:

https://www.lionsroar.com/dharma-dic...-satipatthana/

Also nowhere in the Satipatthana does it mention the word nirvana.