Ethics

[athribiristan]

Originally Posted by Gem

It doesn't demonstrate an lack of understanding on my part, but people have to make it seem that way as the comparison helps them to retain their sense of supremecy.

The capital thing wasn't you in particular, it was becoming the basis of every post there for a while, and I can't talk to ones who are like God's spokespeople or something, and come around here with the Truth.

I think a place like this SF presents many ethical issues... eg a kind of pseudopsychology is practiced, taken from a thread, into PM and then off site, and that's already addressed in the forum rules because it's risky and dangerous. It can't be justified or validated just by 'oh I was guided by spirit.'...

When we go to a particular thing like animal welfare for example, there are particular ethical issues, and there are cultural religious moral issues involved too, so each thing has it's own set of complicated balances which can only be acheived in any reaalistic sense by ongoing debate discussion and implementation of change.

Some basis or set of principles needs to be the foundation upon which all particular issues rests their ethical standards, which kinda comes down to some measure of conscience.

Earlier one member said 'Do no harm' which to my mind serves well as a fundamental guideline... for example.

You have to think hard about what it means to be guided by Spirit, or to follow God's will, or however you want to say it. 'Do no harm' is a part of that. It is always living for the highest good, and more importantly it is doing so not out of convention but out of a deep and genuine compassion for all living things. You can talk about any ethical issue you want and it will always be a matter of personal or societal preferences. Being guided by Spirit, in my opinion, trumps all of that. Jesus, Buddha, Ghandi, and Martin Luther are just a few examples of men who let Spirit guide them. They stood up against the conventions of society and fought for what is right.

Now there are those poeple who will do as you say and attempt to justify ANY action as 'spititually' motivated....and that's a shame because it leads to exactly this sort of debate. But understand that those people, who unfortunately make up the majority of spiritual folk, are shammers. There are those who claim to guided by Spirit and there are those who ARE. Its really pretty easy to spot the difference if you take a minute to look. The fakers are quick to assualt you with the words and ideas of others. They sound convincing but if you question them it quickly becomes apparent that they don't really understand what they are saying. The there are the scholars...they can last a little longer, supply references, and make clever arguments but those will still be based on other people's beliefs.

A person who is guided by Spirit can present their own ideas in their own words. They are ruled by principles like, Love, compassion, respect, humility, and serving others. If you can find an ethical standard that doesn't center around those principles, I want nothing to do with it. It simply comes down to what motivates you.

Originally Posted by athribiristan

You have to think hard about what it means to be guided by Spirit, or to follow God's will, or however you want to say it. 'Do no harm' is a part of that. It is always living for the highest good, and more importantly it is doing so not out of convention but out of a deep and genuine compassion for all living things. You can talk about any ethical issue you want and it will always be a matter of personal or societal preferences. Being guided by Spirit, in my opinion, trumps all of that. Jesus, Buddha, Ghandi, and Martin Luther are just a few examples of men who let Spirit guide them. They stood up against the conventions of society and fought for what is right.

Now there are those poeple who will do as you say and attempt to justify ANY action as 'spiritually' motivated....and that's a shame because it leads to exactly this sort of debate. But understand that those people, who unfortunately make up the majority of spiritual folk, are shammers. There are those who claim to guided by Spirit and there are those who ARE. Its really pretty easy to spot the difference if you take a minute to look. The fakers are quick to assualt you with the words and ideas of others. They sound convincing but if you question them it quickly becomes apparent that they don't really understand what they are saying. Then there are the scholars...they can last a little longer, supply references, and make clever arguments but those will still be based on other people's beliefs.

A person who is guided by Spirit can present their own ideas in their own words. They are ruled by principles like, Love, compassion, respect, humility, and serving others. If you can find an ethical standard that doesn't center around those principles, I want nothing to do with it. It simply comes down to what motivates you.

Excellent post, especially the bolded part.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Again it comes to the point that you are relying on your own intelligence to apply these values as opposed to Divine Intelligence. I don't know if you are familiar with the Bhagavad-Gita. But it illustrates precisely this point. Arjuna(the conditioned soul) is at midst of a fratricidal war and is confused about what his duty is since his material attachments are now conflicting with his spiritual duties in an extreme way. He therefore consults Krishna (God) in order to alleviate his confusion.

That's one interpretation. Sri Aurobindo in his book Essays on the Gita points out that the dilemma is most drastic for the renunciate, so it is obviously the renunciate the Gita is actually written for, as it asks you to abandon family and all earthly duties for spirit, which if everyone did would be chaos and the end of humanity. The fact is, however, without Materiality there would be no Realization - Materiality DOES have it's appropriate and important place.

If you want to devote your life to spirit and eschew all material responsibilities and obligations toward that end, I have the highest respect and appreciation for your sacrifice and wish you the greatest success - but I think it is a grave mistake to assume that is the best course for all of humanity. Instead, I look to the mystic to make those sacrifices so he can come back to humanity and serve as an ever-present reminder of spirit. I think this is a very important function, and a fundamental 'service' to humanity that only he can perform.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

We as conditioned souls are always confused. We are confused about what is right thing to do economically, politically, socially and spiritually.

When I read this, what I see is a person who only feels confused when he is not being guided by spirit. I am not arguing if spirit is the proper guide, only the level of awareness of spirit. Most people simply are not in a mental position to consult spirit directly every day - we have a world to run, and it is in desperate need of our attentions. Consciousness must be cultivated, every day, even for something as indirect as divination.

Do not assume so blatantly everyone is as confused as you. Your understanding does not define the understanding of humanity. The intellect, operating from the correct principles, can be a very powerful tool - and practically anything is better than apathetical ignorance.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by athribiristan

You have to think hard about what it means to be guided by Spirit, or to follow God's will, or however you want to say it. 'Do no harm' is a part of that. It is always living for the highest good, and more importantly it is doing so not out of convention but out of a deep and genuine compassion for all living things. You can talk about any ethical issue you want and it will always be a matter of personal or societal preferences. Being guided by Spirit, in my opinion, trumps all of that. Jesus, Buddha, Ghandi, and Martin Luther are just a few examples of men who let Spirit guide them. They stood up against the conventions of society and fought for what is right.

Now there are those poeple who will do as you say and attempt to justify ANY action as 'spititually' motivated....and that's a shame because it leads to exactly this sort of debate. But understand that those people, who unfortunately make up the majority of spiritual folk, are shammers. There are those who claim to guided by Spirit and there are those who ARE. Its really pretty easy to spot the difference if you take a minute to look. The fakers are quick to assualt you with the words and ideas of others. They sound convincing but if you question them it quickly becomes apparent that they don't really understand what they are saying. The there are the scholars...they can last a little longer, supply references, and make clever arguments but those will still be based on other people's beliefs.

A person who is guided by Spirit can present their own ideas in their own words. They are ruled by principles like, Love, compassion, respect, humility, and serving others. If you can find an ethical standard that doesn't center around those principles, I want nothing to do with it. It simply comes down to what motivates you

We have things like love compassion respect humility serving others which trancend particular individual morality, which is just what I've been saying are the kinds of things that provide a basis for ethical standards, but religious cultural social morals do exist, so can't be dismissed in any realistic practical sense.

I noticed this with the vegitarian debate on this thread, then some arrogant person would probably come along and present their own view as the righteous one because they suffer a guided by spirit delusion.

The situation presents itself as it is, and everyone can just say 'I'm guided by spirit' to justify their dogma, so such notions have no practical purpose, however trems like compassion respect 'do no harm' etc are universally understood so can serve as guidelines in a practical way, because all people basically agree that these are virtuous.

Originally Posted by Humm

That's one interpretation. Sri Aurobindo in his book Essays on the Gita points out that the dilemma is most drastic for the renunciate, so it is obviously the renunciate the Gita is actually written for, as it asks you to abandon family and all earthly duties for spirit, which if everyone did would be chaos and the end of humanity. The fact is, however, without Materiality there would be no Realization - Materiality DOES have it's appropriate and important place.

I disagree that the Gita is written for the renunciate. Arjuna was not a renunciate he was a prince, a man of this world. He tells Krishna that he wants to renounce the battle and become a renunciate but Krishna tells him not to, that he should perform his duty as warrior.
In the third chapter he says "One who restrains the senses and organs of action, but whose mind dwells on sense objects, certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender." BG 3.6. This verse is discouraging false renunciation. The point of the Gita is not that we should renounce. It is that we should follow Krishna's Will for our lives and we can't assume what His Will is. His Will is different for each us since we are all unique and in unique situations.

Originally Posted by Humm

If you want to devote your life to spirit and eschew all material responsibilities and obligations toward that end, I have the highest respect and appreciation for your sacrifice and wish you the greatest success - but I think it is a grave mistake to assume that is the best course for all of humanity. Instead, I look to the mystic to make those sacrifices so he can come back to humanity and serve as an ever-present reminder of spirit. I think this is a very important function, and a fundamental 'service' to humanity that only he can perform.

I'm not saying this is the best course for all humanity, your assuming what Divine Will is.

Originally Posted by Humm

When I read this, what I see is a person who only feels confused when he is not being guided by spirit. I am not arguing if spirit is the proper guide, only the level of awareness of spirit. Most people simply are not in a mental position to consult spirit directly every day - we have a world to run, and it is in desperate need of our attentions. Consciousness must be cultivated, every day, even for something as indirect as divination.

I think I am simply honest. The fact is that all human beings have 4 defects
1) we make mistakes
2) we are in illusion
3) we cheat
4) we have limited sense
Therefore we all require Guidance.
I think materialists are running the world into destruction, due to their lack time to consult spirit. We should think before we act.

Originally Posted by Humm

Do not assume so blatantly everyone is as confused as you. Your understanding does not define the understanding of humanity. The intellect, operating from the correct principles, can be a very powerful tool - and practically anything is better than apathetical ignorance.

I'm not confused, the Supreme Person has solutions for all the problems of this world. It is the materialist who confused since they have no real solutions, although they have is theories and speculations.
"apathetical ignorance" is when we choose to remain ignorant of Divine Will.
The sheep who are running over a cliff may not be confused but that doesn't mean they are running in the right direction it just means that they are less intelligent.

I-Ching I am not saying the Gita is not without value, however any scripture is not Spirit - it is the frozen conceptions of a person and society long dead. It only becomes wisdom when decoded within an appropriate consciousness. To take the words, any words, as being wisdom itself rather than just words, is to make it into dogma.

It is largely agreed the Gita was written for royalty by a sage, so it tends to speak of devotion to spirit on the one side, but duty to state on the other. It also commands observance of caste, which does not support spirit, but does support the society (and ruling class) it no doubt came from.

As to the rest of your points, I really do not disagree with them, per se, however I cannot agree that divorcing oneself from discerning judgement in addition to genuine spiritual reflection, is ever a smart thing to do. If anything, it is those lacks together that I blame for many of the worlds ills, but I suppose that is a matter of perspective.

Originally Posted by Humm

I-Ching I am not saying the Gita is not without value, however any scripture is not Spirit - it is the frozen conceptions of a person and society long dead. It only becomes wisdom when decoded within an appropriate consciousness. To take the words, any words, as being wisdom itself rather than just words, is to make it into dogma.

Scripture by definition are Divine words not ordinary words. Whether you accept it as divine or not I still think it logically presents the principal I was discussing,

Originally Posted by Humm

It is largely agreed the Gita was written for royalty by a sage, so it tends to speak of devotion to spirit on the one side, but duty to state on the other. It also commands observance of caste, which does not support spirit, but does support the society (and ruling class) it no doubt came from.

I don't know what authority your quoting, but those who have faith in the Gita see it as spoken by Krishna (God). The caste system is a perversion of the original varnashrama system spoken of in the Gita.

Originally Posted by Humm

As to the rest of your points, I really do not disagree with them, per se, however I cannot agree that divorcing oneself from discerning judgement in addition to genuine spiritual reflection, is ever a smart thing to do. If anything, it is those lacks together that I blame for many of the worlds ills, but I suppose that is a matter of perspective.

Intelligence is important in spiritual life but that intelligence must be educated by spiritual knowledge, and trained by a Teacher. Without these things intelligence alone is of little value.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Scripture by definition are Divine words not ordinary words. Whether you accept it as divine or not I still think it logically presents the principal I was discussing,

I don't know what authority your quoting, but those who have faith in the Gita see it as spoken by Krishna (God). The caste system is a perversion of the original varnashrama system spoken of in the Gita.


Intelligence is important in spiritual life but that intelligence must be educated by spiritual knowledge, and trained by a Teacher. Without these things intelligence alone is of little value.

I agree with your last point, but as to the others, what can I say?

Take good care I-Ching.

[Gem]

More and more I find that the 'divine will' principle is used as justification for ones own fulfillment. It's funny, because it is said that 'Divine Will' leads to conduct inspired by human values which are (almost) universally considered to be virtuous, and I agree, ethics is virtue based.

There's an important contradiction where such a thing as 'DivineWill' is used to suit one agenda, and 'free will' is used to suit another, eg everything is 'your choice' but it's also 'Divine Will'... certainly this is incongruent.

I suspect the 'Divine Will' ideal is a symptom of righteousness used to impose a superioriatic attitude where that persons personal morality is imposed under a guise of it being God's bidding, as would vegitarianizm be considered the 'Divine Way', and imposed moralistically for example, however to an Inuit community such values are idiotic.

This means, I'm not the kind of sucker who will just buy into some cat preaching something holy sounding having high ethics, rather I'd suspect moralistic views, and as a basic principle ethics would trancend personal morality and rest on human dignity and virtue.

Originally Posted by Gem

This means, I'm not the kind of sucker who will just buy into some cat preaching something holy sounding having high ethics, rather I'd suspect moralistic views, and as a basic principle ethics would trancend personal morality and rest on human dignity and virtue.

Well said.

Everything has it's use and it's misuse - including actions, and perceptions.