To who/m or what does ...

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Walks

I really enjoyed this description/parsing and feel it for me as well. Thank you Davidson.

Glad it rang some bells for you TW. It is meant FOR everyone - well maybe not 'hares', LOL!

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Walks

Hi Daz, 7L, everyone who has added to this thread! Thank you!!!!

Daz, I really appreciate the depth of your sharing and also resonate quite strongly with a lot of what you’ve stated in regards to free will, knowing only what’s required in the moment, also playing roles that may or may not “look good” on the outside yet are still aligned to self (in my opinion) when i’m completely honest with myself. I do share in the ripple effect... for the bigger idea/plan of which i may only see/know what i’m meant to...

what was interesting to me was becoming aware of certain conditioning and judgements... in myself... also came to understand/recognize how some actions perpetrated “against me” were actually “for me” in ways i couldn't understand at the time. confronted with scenarios where being aligned with self, participating in my “free will” was to actually go against (in possibility) what i believed rigidly (mentally and/or emotionally) to be right and true...

no way would i go against that! Never! Not me!

Hahaha! Ok, so you say... how about try this on... then what?

Oh... hmmmm... is this really where my inner alignment is taking me? lets go of control of the external “packaging and branding” i’ve grown comfortable with in order to be aligned with self. The self that feels guided (who’s guiding me?) from the soul kernal within me (like an acorn with an unseen tree inside) that in my experience drives and motivates me to carry on. Come what may...

never say never, lol. I go by that now as best i can. I might just be called on it ;-)

I am the doer and the observer in my life... sometimes i also feel like the guided/guider (like other me’s are helping the now “oblivious” me out as needed and required to tweak my direction and focus?). there is also the divine guidance that has its own way communicating with me through people, places, experiences. Who or what is that? For now, for me it’s Source/God/All of which i am also as it moves within me - into my own doing and observing... in my own “localized sphere”.

Cheers!

TW

Hey TW,

Glad you have been following along and resonating .

In a roundabout way and as you have mentioned in regards to your self awareness relating to certain conditions and judgements is what I have presented in my understandings ..

When the fruit is ripe then will it detach from the tree, when the student is ready the master will appear ..

All these aspects of readiness has to encompass the environment that leads to the experience .

It's not by luck or chance or coincidence that the fruit falls or the master comes ..

Nor can you stop an egg from hatching because it is destined to hatch, preprogrammed by design to hatch, part of the process of life to hatch .

What I was saying to 7l was that in these instances, we can leave free will aside, it is something rather more that is in motion that goes beyond the individuals will .

Was there free will to put that in process in motion would have to be addressed at that point of motion, it could be said at that point was part of the same process prior to that lol .



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Think of Creation (the Whole Shebang!) as being the 'working out' of a Source-Code or Operating-Program of Love-and-Joy experience-expression-n-further-exploration (i.e. ongoing/further Creation).

The 'code' is operational in every 'element' (computer-circuit) that is 'created' - some 'circuits' are connected in 'series', others in 'parallel' in the MATRIX i.e. MOTHER of LIFE - the 'output' of each and every 'feature' of the MATRIX serves as 'feedback' (i.e. 'input') to every other 'feature' which chooses how it will 'use' (if at all) and what it will 'do' (if anything) with the 'input' it receives.

The 'thoughts' and 'ideas' which whirl around (i.e. which 'arise') are all a 'function of' and so 'belong' to all LIFE.

In your case, I would suggest you get clear about just what it is you wish to 'figure out' (i.e. which you wish to 'computationally process') as well as why and then focus your attention on (i.e. pray to 'receive' and gratefully 'accept') anything meaningful which comes to you (i.e. which 'pops' into your 'head') in this regard, daz. Whatever its proximate 'channel;, rest assured it 'comes' from and is 'a part of' ALL THAT IS - i.e. from LIFE ITSELF!

Sure whatever comes / arises is a part of all life / life itself / Self / what we are or whatever words suits .

However if there is no distinction had from that which arises in you and that which arises in me, then in a way there is no free will that pertains to the individual, there is just a movement of energy / thought and doing or not doing as a result of ..

If everything is coded / programmed then the thought of free will is just part of a code / program .

From this perspective / context it's plausible to relate to what we are as wired so to speak as well as conditioned to behave in a certain way because of how the mind-body matrix has been designed / constructed .

A fully functioning mind-body robot lol will cry when upset as an example .



x daz x

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by God-Like

If everything is coded / programmed then the thought of free will is just part of a code / program.

No, you miss my 'point' completely - presumably because you want(?) to believe there's no such thing as 'free' will for some 'reason', which I urge you to pray to be 'revealed' to you and then suggest you explore.

The Source-'code' or 'program' (of all Life) is Love and Joy and consequently all of Life is 'governed' by the 'imperative' to seek to maximally actualize (i.e. experience and express) IT. We don't have 'freedom', i.e. we are code-'driven', in this regard.

But by virtue of being 'intelligent' - i.e. of having the capacity to process information pertaining to (the experience and expression of) Love and Joy - we each have the capacity to choose (i.e. a certain degree of 'freedom', or 'power', to personally choose) how we 'execute' said program in our own case - and, of course, to learn (from the 'feedack' of 'results') how to be more functional, i,e. how to 'do' and 'be' better in said Love and Joy regards.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by davidsun

No, you miss my 'point' completely - presumably because you want(?) to believe there's no such thing as 'free' will for some 'reason', which I urge you to pray to be 'revealed' to you and then suggest you explore.

The Source-'code' or 'program' (of all Life) is Love and Joy and consequently all of Life is 'governed' by the 'imperative' to seek to maximally actualize (i.e. experience and express) IT. We don't have 'freedom', i.e. we are code-'driven', in this regard.

But by virtue of being 'intelligent' - i.e. of having the capacity to process information pertaining to (the experience and expression of) Love and Joy - we each have the capacity to choose (i.e. a certain degree of 'freedom', or 'power', to personally choose) how we 'execute' said program in our own case - and, of course, to learn (from the 'feedack' of 'results') how to be more functional, i,e. how to 'do' and 'be' better in said Love and Joy regards.

I think you miss my point, I am just exploring the possibilities for why we do what we do, why we experience what we do . The fact that one doesn’t hold the awareness of all things at the time of doing ‘must’ therefore allow the notion that there is something at play that could be the reason for why there is sufferings and such likes .

My context relating to programming and coding makes sense because if you were programmed to feel emotion then when the upset button is pushed or triggered then you are going to cry . There are other life forces that don't experience emotions like a human mind body does, so where is the free will for these energies to become emotional .

Where is the free will in that scenario?

I am more in to understanding self in all aspects, I don’t want to believe free will exists or it doesn’t, I just try and understand how things are in reflection of my own experiences / realisations .

You speak about the virtue of intelligence having the capacity to process information .. well do you have free will to attain that intelligence or have you just been part of the process of life that has brought you to such a point .

It could be said that this process of life is in motion that just allows experience had based upon your design at present . You can't feel what is like to give birth can you no matter how much free will you might have ..

The capacity to choose is reflecting that which is chosen ..

You can’t choose to realize Self or realize the bigger picture .. It is a process that comes to you when the individual is ready .

You can choose to scratch your nose because you have an itch and you have a nose and you have a finger .

It’s easy to associate free will when you have the tools to carryout what one’s will is .

You have to get to the point of one’s experience and most are not immediately aware of all the facts .


x daz x

[davidsun]

To take (apart!) just a couple of your 'arguments', daz:

Originally Posted by God-Like

My context relating to programming and coding makes sense because if you were programmed to feel emotion then when the upset button is pushed or triggered then you are going to cry . There are other life forces that don't experience emotions like a human mind body does, so where is the free will for these energies to become emotional. Where is the free will in that scenario?

One CAN be 'emotional' (feel sadness, etc.) and NOT cry, or in relation to some 'reasons' for sadness cry and in relation to other 'reasons' for sadness NOT cry.

Originally Posted by God-Like

You can choose to scratch your nose because you have an itch and you have a nose and you have a finger.

You can also choose NOT to scratch your nose EVEN THOUGH you have a nose and have a finger. I personally choose to scratch my nose when I have an itch there, but that is not the point. I could also choose NOT to if I, for some 'reason', wanted NOT to.

Originally Posted by God-Like

I am more in to understanding self in all aspects, I don’t want to believe free will exists or it doesn’t, ...

Based on my above-stated 'observations', what you say here doesn't ring true to me. Just saying that the way I 'experience' what you are saying, it looks, sounds and walks like you do want to believe that you (and others) DON'T have 'free' will - for 'reasons' I can't decipher, tho maybe you can .

Strikes me there's nothing more to be gained by 'beating' this horse further, so, of my own 'free' will , I'm out o' here, daz.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by davidsun

To take (apart!) just a couple of your 'arguments', daz:


One CAN be 'emotional' (feel sadness, etc.) and NOT cry, or in relation to some 'reasons' for sadness cry and in relation to other 'reasons' for sadness NOT cry.


You can also choose NOT to scratch your nose EVEN THOUGH you have a nose and have a finger. I personally choose to scratch my nose when I have an itch there, but that is not the point. I could also choose NOT to if I, for some 'reason', wanted NOT to.


Based on my above-stated 'observations', what you say here doesn't ring true to me. Just saying that the way I 'experience' what you are saying, it looks, sounds and walks like you do want to believe that you (and others) DON'T have 'free' will - for 'reasons' I can't decipher, tho maybe you can .

Strikes me there's nothing more to be gained by 'beating' this horse further, so, of my own 'free' will , I'm out o' here, daz.

The reason why one cries and another doesn’t will also be down to one’s make up by design .

If you were a peep that has learn’t to hold back the tears for whatever reason then you won’t cry ..

What is your conditioned make up?

Some entities / energies are not emotional .

There would be no choice to cry or not when upset .

Do you understand?

The environment / conditions have already been set / put in motion .

You don’t have the choice to drown in the ocean where there is no ocean .

You can only make choices based upon your surroundings / predicament / conditions .

The nose scratching analogy was illustrating that .

If you don’t want to scratch your nose then don’t scratch it, but you have the means too or not .

This is what I call entertaining an environment where you can carry out one’s will .

It’s limited to that isn’t it . That doesn’t illustrate free will it illustrates that you are able to do something that you are able to do .


Again for the record I am presenting one line of context regarding programming / mind-body limitations and so forth and as said all along I am pointing to the requirement for all facts to be at hand, for one’s awareness of the bigger picture to be present .

I could present a case for one having free will quite as easily ..


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)

haha .. well it is black and white it's just one isn't aware of that .

In regards to no one is wholly exempt from the laws of time and space and physics, etc, is correct as I see it but the laws you talk about reflect my point so much as in there are laws that we are bound to while in experience . The main one being no one's life can be taken accidentally because one's life is not based upon luck or chance .

There is no such thing as being in the wrong place at the wrong time .

Can you imagine a poor old chap incarnating time and time again to experience a certain thing and each time be cursed with some bad luck where there is never the opportunity to have that experience .

Hahahaha LOL!!! You're hilarious Dazza, heheh.

I agree in part with what you say on death due to the disclaimer, because it is always possible and sometimes even probable that one will experience hardship, violence, disease, famine, die accidentally or even by another's hand, etc.

But I don't at all see it being due to having set it in stone in an agreement you will kill me or I will kill you. That is not part of the agreement, even if it is possible or even probable that there will be some conflict, etc., which can nearly always be traced to one's own baggage here or in prior lives, where perhaps one or several haven't forgiven the other(2). That is part of the fallout from living whilst unawakened, hence the disclaimer.

And yes, I do also see that it is of course possible that one may be cut short or diverted repeatedly before getting around to a bucket list of some kind . That happened to me and will also have happened to many, many others.

What we do is, as we grow, we may consider other means to growth. Perhaps a soul no longer needs to shag a harem, revel in some kind of power or control, or what have ye. Perhaps they are open to incarnation as a woman, or as a 8-legged humanoid, or what have ye, and then other possibilities and other desired experiences can arise ;)

Re: meant to be, I also agree in part...

Whilst I don't believe any one thing is "meant to be" in the sense of having been approved, agreed upon, ratified or justified -- I do believe that we have all agreed to the disclaimer and therefore to accept the outcomes of what occurs whilst incarnated. Meaning, we pre-arrange some key meetups and accept to be here for the duration and not to exit out by our own hands, ideally.

Rather than things being "meant to be", I see that things are as they are, which comprises the thought, intent, word, and deed of one and all.
You and I are -- one way or the other -- in process of becoming who we are. To the degree that we are consciously taking choices to shape the warp and weft of our soul and consciously align with our centre, then IMO we are becoming (by our own assessment) who we are meant to be :)

But until we are all at this place and all living in this way, nothing is as it is meant to be. Except over the span of eternity. Which is shorthand for saying whenever we are all living and acting consciously to align with our centre (which we must first discover and come to know). That bit is often conflated.

In this moment, IMO, things simply are as they are, and for some, they are consciously choosing what and who they are meant to be.
When we all get there, per MLK, then IMO we can begin to speak of things being as they are meant to be. I think Jesus and many others also spoke of this same thing.

What I speak of goes deep and what repercussions had and what ripples are felt by other peeps is mean't to be .

I know you have agreed with certain things in this regard, I am just illustrating how people effect other people, how their experience or how what they said can inspire others and create what was mean't for them to experience .

It's all connected so to speak and this is why 'so called' random events that have meaning will be experienced come what may .

What we don't always know of at the time is what is meaningful to us .

x daz x

Yes agreed and well said :)


Well, those are my 2 p's....thoughts?
I will take a look at the rest too.
Peace & blessings Dazzer
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

What I mean is that we are all bound by what is meaningful / important to us .

There is no getting out of experiencing what we need to experience .

There is possibly some leeway in regards to that which has no importance / relevance to self or others, but how will one know .

How will one know in the immediate that what you or I or anyone say's doesn't give one food for thought and take it from there ..

How will one know if what any of us say that is heard now won't be repeated elsewhere and the chain effect keeps on going and going .

What was said at the time that didn't seem important to us might be important for someone else .

Acts of kindness or hatred observed in the news or in the street can have the same effect .

I am talking on a grand scale here that ripples across the universe even if that which ripples is felt as energy in some far away galaxy lol .

If you contemplate on that for a minute, it really becomes impossible to know where our free will supposedly began and where it no longer is .

I said I wasn't drawn to say anything much about the free will thingy lol but think about it as what is needed or required in the moment then free will doesn't really come in to at all .

One could say there was free will to implement what was needed or required but we could go deeper into the requirement or need for free will to be possible to entertain that requirement in the first place .

There has to be a plan so to speak in regards to where we find ourselves in this moment discussing free will, so in a way we have to go back so to speak to the beginning of the thought to do this or that and for why we do and for how it is possible to do ..

It's a crazy line of thought I know and possibly over thought, but without knowing what I am suggesting along with not being totally aware of why we find ourselves doing or not doing anything things are for many taken at face value ..

You won't find many people entertaining things in great depth in the moment, it's normally in hindsight that one does ..

One wouldn't be functioning normally if one had to mull over infinite possibilities pertaining to what happens and why what happens every moment of the day lol ..


x daz x

Hey there Dazza...all you say is true. You've presented this in some depth and there is a lot of complexity from the bird's eye view...such as from the view of Source or even the transcendentals or the human collective.

But...just a few things to keep in mind. Remember that experiences desired or needed can and do often change or evolve even (especially) whilst you are incarnated. No one really talks about that, either. And yet it is all commonplace, particularly as we go and we gain a better footing on the journey. We steer the ship more fully and more confidently as we go, and so taking (new) choices is what we are meant to do as we grow.

Also, we are -- despite all the interconnections -- "meant to" live consciously and as true to ourselves as possible in each moment. That's why we are called to awaken in each moment. To be fully in the moment and to take your choices as deeply and as truly as you can. Be here now and be love now (Ram Dass). Because we affect one another so much and so deeply, because of the vast nature and scope of interbeing -- these are all the more reason to be here and to be love right now. So that you can speak and do more truly, more aligned with who you are at centre.

Peace & blessings Daz
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

I think you miss my point, I am just exploring the possibilities for why we do what we do, why we experience what we do . The fact that one doesn’t hold the awareness of all things at the time of doing ‘must’ therefore allow the notion that there is something at play that could be the reason for why there is sufferings and such likes .

My context relating to programming and coding makes sense because if you were programmed to feel emotion then when the upset button is pushed or triggered then you are going to cry . There are other life forces that don't experience emotions like a human mind body does, so where is the free will for these energies to become emotional .

Where is the free will in that scenario?

Hey Daz...just a few thoughts. Your conscious choices, as I understand them, are to align with your core emotion, which is who you are at centre.
Our foundation is equanimity and our heart centre can expand in lovingkindness from this. All we feel is a part of who we are and is not to be denied, such as love and grief. But there are also snakebrain instincts that we often need to reflect on before reacting on (bloodlust, lust, rage, etc).

Our capacity for self-awareness and reflection means conscious choice is always possible...it does not mean we don't or shouldn't feel or accept our feelings in the moment, in order to be more honest and self-aware.

I am more in to understanding self in all aspects, I don’t want to believe free will exists or it doesn’t, I just try and understand how things are in reflection of my own experiences / realisations .

Despite that we are our brother's keeper and interbeing is a reality of all things, not just humanity... Nonetheless, because you (and I and all the rest) are self-aware and possess the capacity to reflect and to choose, you ARE responsible for all you intent, think, say, and do. Even though your level of awareness (as with all of us) is not perfected and never will be perfected and done with "forever and ever"...due to the fact that we are individuated consciousness and not just One.

Ownership is inherent in self-awareness...they are inseparable, regardless of where we are in the process and the fact that our grasp of both of these things is as yet only partial. No matter how extensive each being's influence is...and it is extensive...it all starts with leading from centre, mind in heart. It all starts with each of us being and doing authentic love toward self and others, by conscious choice.

So I would say ;) try not to sweat the complexities (as I agree they are mind-boggling) if they are a distraction or are getting you down -- and just accept that the reality of individuated consciousness incarnated into material existence (time and space) makes free will not only possible, but inherent in your very being no matter where you are. Source wouldn't have it any other way I know in my very core that I am not a sheeple in any sense of somehow being led, not even in spirit, nor you nor the rest of us.

You speak about the virtue of intelligence having the capacity to process information .. well do you have free will to attain that intelligence or have you just been part of the process of life that has brought you to such a point .

It could be said that this process of life is in motion that just allows experience had based upon your design at present . You can't feel what is like to give birth can you no matter how much free will you might have ..

The capacity to choose is reflecting that which is chosen ..

You can’t choose to realize Self or realize the bigger picture .. It is a process that comes to you when the individual is ready .

You can choose to scratch your nose because you have an itch and you have a nose and you have a finger .

It’s easy to associate free will when you have the tools to carryout what one’s will is .

You have to get to the point of one’s experience and most are not immediately aware of all the facts .

x daz x

It's true, we are only partially aware...and thus we often choose poorly. Nonetheless, we are always responsible for our choices, even if that is not fully understood in our spiritual infancy.

Consciously taking ownership of our choices, and taking those choices as consciously as possible by centreing in the moment is part and parcel of the process of awakening, IMO. It is also a source of the sheer joy and beauty of awakening.

Peace & blessings
7L