A Case Against Hell - Biblical and Otherwise

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Molearner

SeaZen,

Once again, I beg to differ. It is completely erroneous to suggest that white man under the influence of religion made the assumption that man was inherently evil and consequently established punishment for crime. The evil of man was recognized in all societies prior to Christianity and society always responded to this with punitive measures. Egyptians, Chinese, Indian, etc.

If the American Indians were relatively peaceful(and this could be disputed) it was largely due to population density. They inhabited vast areas of land with relatively few people. Largely nomadic in character, nevertheless, they would employ violence if they felt their hunting areas were encroached on.

This idea of blaming the white man and Christianity is nothing more than an attempt to lay guilt and blame on specific groups ignoring the fact that this was a universal problem........neither ethnicity or religious specific. The desire for survival has always served as motivation for crime.....to possess something that enables the survival of one over another. Even the great experiment of communism was not able to eradicate this inherent evil.

I beg to differ as well Molearner. The fact that mankind can err was recognized in all societies but they did not all label it evil and did not all deal with it in the same way. Big difference. Also, the concept of police, a court justice system and incarceration all originated in white society.

Thanks for the thoughtful response Molearner and you do make more than several points I can agree with here but once again I must standby what I said earlier that it was the white man (not the indigenous) who feel that man is inherently evil (largely due to religious influences). I have provided a link for you to peruse regarding the differences between the "white" and "indigenous" justice systems and they are grand. The "inherent evil" of man was not recognized in native societies as you suggest (only the capacity to err was recognized) and their approach to conflict resolution was a spiritual holistic one.

I will provide a quote and then the link to the entire article (which BTW does not mention the word "evil" even once)

The indigenous justice paradigm is based on a holistic philosophy and the world view of the aboriginal inhabitants of North America. These systems are guided by the unwritten customary laws, traditions, and practices that are learned primarily by example and through the oral teachings of tribal elders.3 The holistic philosophy is a circle of justice that connects everyone involved with a problem or conflict on a continuum, with everyone focused on the same center. The center of the circle represents the underlying issues that need to be resolved to attain peace and harmony for the individuals and the community. The continuum represents the entire process, from disclosure of problems, to discussion and resolution, to making amends and restoring relationships. The methods used are based on concepts of restorative and reparative justice and the principles of healing and living in harmony with all beings and with nature.4

http://www.aidainc.net/Publications/ij_systems.htm

[VinceField]

These sources seem to indicate that the concept of evil has been around since ancient times:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/cosmology/evil.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/evil/hod/hod05.htm

I'm sure there are many more examples, but just these few should suffice to make the point clear.

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by VinceField

These sources seem to indicate that the concept of evil has been around since ancient times:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/cosmology/evil.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/evil/hod/hod05.htm

I'm sure there are many more examples, but just these few should suffice to make the point clear.

True but only in some certain specific religions and belief systems, not all. The wiki article you posted clearly state that in the bahai faith evil is non-existent and in the jewish faith evil is not real

Interesting that the wikipedia article on evil did not mention the indigenous of north and south america and only the peoples and religions of the european and asian landmasses. This encouraged me to google evil and native american and I found only this ONE link out of all the search results

http://www.native-languages.org/legends-evil.htm

Which states the following

People, animals, and even monsters are rarely described as "evil" in traditional Native American legends. More often it is their actions (such as murder, treachery, and tormenting others) that are described as evil or morally wrong.

This may seem like a small distinction, but since many Native American folktales are intended as teaching stories, it is important for them to discourage children from bad behavior, not to condemn them for "being bad."

The fact that they use quotes around the word "evil" strongly indicates to me that there may not be a direct native american equivalent to the western concept of evil and that they use it for english speakers understandings. From what I have read they seem to have a different feel and concept of the negative actions of man than the asian/european concept of evil. "Error" seems more of an equivalent than "evil". The native american link I posted earlier on their justice system corroborates this.

I find it refreshing that Native American culture does not find humankind inherently evil and that the focus is on the behavior they find unseemly that they wish to correct. It goes to show IMO how much more spiritually evolved their system of spiritual beliefs were (and are) to many of the rest of the worlds traditional spiritual/religious beliefs. Fortunately many are now catching up to their ways.

[Jatd]

Thank you for sharing! Awesome~

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Jatd

Thank you for sharing! Awesome~

You are welcome Jatd. I enjoyed your post earlier in this thread and found it to be the best one here. It made great sense coming from a basis of love and was IMO the most convincing because of that

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Much discussion has gone on prior already about how certain fear is healthy. I could quote the Lord Himself, again, on Who one ought to fear.
Which interpreted means both respect and awe, though you may be adverse to it also.

I somehow overlooked responding to this post which deserves debunking...fear is healthy? Are you kidding? Fear is a cancer responsible for all negative human behavior deemed "evil" and dysfunctional. Caution and awareness is healthy, fear is incapacitating and dysfunctional. Even in dangerous situations fear is a negative. Many a soldier will tell you that fear and emotional outbursts on the battlefield will get you killed as it puts you in a state where you are unable utilize your combat training effectively.

Fear = Respect and awe?? Dysfunctional tyrants use fear in an attempt to garner respect and awe and you equate god/jesus to modeling after them? LOL!

So let me attend to your above errant post.

For one, Revelation is in alignment with the Book of the Prophet Daniel regarding situations and terms. Which also has symbolism involving prophecy, Who you may also want to demean, and, debase.

Because it has alot of symbolism, which you are adverse also to looking into, is no reason to accuse the writer of having hallucinations.

Get a book about the symbolism if you want. Lose the subjectivity and diasaffection.

And who are you (or anyone else) to decipher the hallucinatory symbolism of the author of revelations? Only the author himself can explain what he wrote. Many have come up with widely differing interpretations of revelations. Who is correct and why? BTW, Books on symbolism are the opinion of the author and not definitive. What are the standards you use and how do YOU interpret it and why? Please explain.

A parable is an illustration. The Lord used much in the way of illustration or metaphore to share Truth.
Son of a, "garbage dump"? He was speaking of a, "son of the infernal". Which apparently exists.

Yes, and many interpret illustrations differently as they are not literal.

Your reference to the Almighty in your spelling, and your overall post is indicative of your disaffectedness towards it.
The Truth.[/color]

My "disaffectedness" is not towards THE truth but YOUR truth, lets not make no mistake about that....

Hi..."newbie" here! I've been following this thread w/ interest. I'm particularly fascinated with the cosmic quality of the ancient religious texts, regardless of translation and interpretive flaws, such as found on the "biblerealitycheck" website. For most of us I guess there's still a lot of "unlearning" to do relative to our Judeo-Christian indoctrination. One thing that surely needs to go (and quickly!) is the spiritual toxicity of fear and condemnation exemplified in the ideas and imagery of "hell" as we hope to mature in true unconditional love and mercy, personified by Lord Yeshua. Here's some further info about this terrible religious construct...pretty sure we don't need its influence over our hearts and minds! Peace to all!

Going to “Hell”?

(Note: This edited excerpt has been culled from the text of the “Wings Treatise” found on the "biblerealitycheck" website in order to provide some clarification regarding the translation of key words found in most English Bibles that is largely responsible for the perpetuation of the “hell” myth as challenged in “A Case Against Hell” by M. Aiken)

With its powerfully frightening imagery supported by centuries of unscholarly manipulation of the biblical texts entwined with pagan underworld myth and fictional literature, art and drama that spins vivid, hellish tales of torture and woe, today's religious culture appears, sadly, hell bound to endure the curse of this awful fiction. From a perspective on Hebrew theology relative to defining the English word “hell”, we may also discover that the true origin and abode of the Bible's malevolent elohim beings (e.g. demons, devils, evil gods) that are said to visit and/or inhabit the earth realm is clearly extra-terrestrial, not subterranean, according to ancient Hebrew thought.

Briefly, there are three words, the Hebrew “Sheol” and “Ge Hinnom” (alt. Gehenna) and the Greek “Hades” (each having a totally different definition) which are almost universally rendered “hell” in the English Bible translations, giving this familiar myth an appearance of scriptural authenticity without any regard for distinctions in the texts. A fourth word, “Tartaros”, likewise translated “hell”, is used only once in II Peter 2:4 and refers to imprisoned “angels who sinned”. Here, “Tartaros” may simply be viewed as a reference to the Hebrew idea of a dark pit, or abyss, in an unknown cosmic location (i.e. beyond Earth) believed to hold certain transgressing angelic elohim, not dead human beings. Rather than reinforcing the epic tale of the Greek god Saturn imprisoning rebellious gods (the Titans) in the netherworld of “Tartaros” one should view such a biblical reference from a Hebrew theology perspective. There are many examples where we find a Greek theological or cultural bias influencing the NT biblical texts possibly owing to the difficult Hebrew-Greek-English translation process, however, put simply, institutional Christianity’s historic promotion of “hell”, conceptually and doctrinally, is built upon dishonest and deceptive English Bible translation.

The word most often translated “hell” is the Hebrew word “Sheol” (found some sixty-five times in the OT) and approximates the meaning of a tomb or grave, which, according to the custom of the day, could be a subterranean burial cavern used as a mass grave. Home to decaying corpses, skeletons and detestable creatures, Sheol was understandably a frightful place to be avoided. Yet, it was simply regarded as the underground abode of the buried dead. Over time, Sheol may have taken on some of the superstition and religious beliefs pertaining to a “hellish” underworld from the Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, and other cultures with whom the Hebrew peoples interacted throughout history. However, Sheol was never thought to be the abode of living beings (human or extraterrestrial) and should not be equated with any of the prevailing myths that depict a netherworld dungeon of fire where lost souls are tortured alive by grotesque demonic creatures.

In the NT there are two distinctive Greek words having very different meanings that are also translated “hell”. The first, “Hades”, is used ten times by three writers, and is borrowed from the Greek legend of a frightening underworld realm where gods and monsters are involved in a variety of nefarious dramas. Again, one must take care not to infer from this unfortunate word choice that the Hebrew writers of the NT intended to endorse any Greek theological mythos in contradiction to the prevailing Hebrew thinking pertaining to the whereabouts of their buried dead, i.e. “sheol”. Therefore, the Greek Hades, commonly rendered “hell”, should always be corrected to read “grave”, corresponding to the Hebrew “sheol”. The accuracy of such a transliteration process is further reinforced by certain cross-quoting of Old and New Testaments texts such as Acts 2:27-31 quote of Psalms 16:8-11 where both “sheol” and “Hades” are used interchangeably to refer to a grave, not “hell”.

The second NT word translated “hell” is “Gehenna” (Heb. Ge Hinnom, lit. a valley outside of Jerusalem where the city dump was located. This term was obviously used by Yeshua (eleven times and also once by the Apostle James) to convey a specific message regarding the ultimate fate of the wicked, certain Jewish religious authorities, and the Devil and his elohim legions. By referring to the waste disposal site of Ge Hinnom, or Gehenna, where mounds of garbage burned continuously, Yeshua was describing symbolically, in eschatological terms quite familiar to his listeners, that all reprobate beings (human or extraterrestrial) would eventually be disposed of like garbage and incinerated.

Nowhere does Yeshua (or any other biblical Jew) expound upon an afterlife doctrine resembling the Greek inspired hell myth nor does he state that Gehenna is an actual netherworld location, above or below, where condemned beings are incarcerated and tortured alive. Indeed, by choosing the name of this well-known waste disposal site he communicated quite simply the concept of a fateful annihilation of those reprobate beings considered to be the garbage of the universe. Were it his intention to describe a fiery dungeon within the bowels of the earth where wicked beings are kept alive to be tortured throughout eternity, instead of incinerated like garbage, the infamous institutions of torture existing in his time certainly offered other very graphic analogies upon which he could draw to better communicate a concept more closely resembling the classic “hell” myth. But he did not.

Clearly, the NT promises immortality only to the “saved”, or rescued, devotees of Yeshua Messiah, whether alive or dead at his reappearing (the “second coming”) coinciding with the resurrection of the human dead at the end of the ages, according to this distinctive Messianic eschatological belief. All “un-rescued” beings, whether terrestrial or extraterrestrial, are said to be destined for Lord Yahweh's “everlasting judgment” that results in their destruction in a mysterious “lake of fire”. A thorough study of the whole of biblical scripture that maintains a Hebrew perspective on life, death and resurrection in eternity does not support the concept of an eternal life of torture in “hell” or anywhere else. Despite its having endured in our Judeo-Christian religious culture for centuries, isn’t it finally time to see “hell” as the deceptive religious fraud it is, rooted in a history of dishonest translation scholarship?

[Jatd]

I've been trying to read through all of these posts and it amazes me all the different ideas and beliefs of hell or of no hell.

All I know is that my entire life I grew up believing in hell and scared to death of it. Every screw up, I felt angry at myself, ashamed, guilty and scared to death of hell and I would beg and plead for God's forgiveness and never ever feel good enough. This was not humble, this was a terrible awful feeling.

It wasn't until March of 2012 that I went through something heartbreaking and totally surrendered to my suffering and the LOVE that and protection that was pouring into me from, NONE OTHER THAN GOD. It was THEN and then only that I truly stopped believing in hell. (At least the lake of fire pushed by Christians hell idea)

I know that a God THAT loving can only love and NEVER punish.
It was then I become humble and SO BLESSED from the inside out.
I began to see the bible in a whole new light, but this also brought on anger and resentment towards the church and Christians, especially after I was kicked out my church. Here I was trying to show them what Jesus was here to do! What his teachings were all about and all they could do was call me a sinner and kick me out of their doors slamming them as they pushed me out!
It was wicked and I began to believe that maybe SATAN was IN the church not outside the doors! And THEN I realized that SATAN is the EGO! That creation of duality. We all have it, but when we resist it and realize we are a temple of the holy spirit we are filled with JOY!
When we fall into temptation (With the mind and ego) we live in a hell like state.. of torture.

Very hard to put into words but I KNOW that God does not punish! WE reap what we sew, and for the person who dies with no remorse after hurting many, I BELIEVE they either are reincarnated to try it all over again until they crack and the light enters, or they are held in a dark place, until they crack and the light enters - they accept God's love.

What an amazing feeling it is to accept how MUCH you are loved!!!!

[Amilius777]

Nice and simple Jatd.

I think people create their own hell on earth and then experience it in the after-life realm. - whatever that may be.

But I believe all the levels on the Other Side are closer or further to the light. There is no "hell" is the religious sense. There is only "Heaven" or the realm of Spirit and it varies in degrees.

There was a saying by a Catholic mystic (ironic) who once said, "Paradise is good for the good, and bad for the bad". Something along those lines. The irony of that sentence is that it is all "Paradise". A rest from the physical realm. A return to our true home- Spirit.

But depending on what you have sown within you will also reap within.

We only take what is within us to the other side. If we magnified and expressed great love and kindness and good faith and what the golden rule teaches us we bring that love and energy with us. And it is the opposite for a person who manifested unkindness, hate, and violence.

Now think about that for a minute. It depends on our evolution in the Earth. Earth is finite, evolutionary, and dualistic. How could any hell or purgatory be forever for a Soul?

The soul would need to come back here to continue it's evolution and growth in order to ascend; unless the soul becomes stuck in one of these lower-vibratory realms.

I think that is the frightening thing about negativity and unkindness that it can be so entrapping and constricting in the mind that in the After-Life realm, those feelings are magnified and very difficult to get out of. That is why there is an old saying- "everlasting hellfire".

Originally Posted by Jatd

It was wicked and I began to believe that maybe SATAN was IN the church not outside the doors! And THEN I realized that SATAN is the EGO! That creation of duality. We all have it, but when we resist it and realize we are a temple of the holy spirit we are filled with JOY!
When we fall into temptation (With the mind and ego) we live in a hell like state.. of torture.

Jatd,

This....this is it in a nutshell. It is like finding the pearl of great price. That voice whispering in your ear that deceives you is the ego. The ego that separates us from God......the ego that prevents us from loving and being loved. The ego that is the creator of our own personal hells. Now that you realize that you can understand that those who torment you have that same problem. They, too, were once pursuing that which is good and true but their egos created a detour. How can you look at them with anger or hate? You are looking at ones that are sick and in need of a cure. It is no different than looking at one with cancer. If we cannot direct love and compassion to them then we are still sick ourselves.

There was a thread on another forum here where someone was going on about strengthening the ego and how beneficial it is, etc. It is such a polar opposite to that which I hold to be true that it seemed pointless to respond to that thread. It is, indeed, a major step to identify and recognize the dangerous programs of the ego.