Andreas Moritz, Famous Vegan dies

[knightofalbion]

Originally Posted by StephenK

But god kinda expected a notable amount of bloodshed on a regular basis of those who were "lesser" than us...

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Animal sacrifice is an important theme found throughout Scripture because “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22). When Adam and Eve sinned, animals were killed by God to provide clothing for them (Genesis 3:21). Cain and Abel brought sacrifices to the Lord. Cain's was unacceptable because he brought fruit, while Abel's was acceptable because it was the “firstborn of his flock” (Genesis 4:4-5). After the flood receded, Noah sacrificed animals to God (Genesis 8:20-21).
http://www.gotquestions.org/animal-sacrifices.html
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Well, if it's done by an "angel" we'd probably be okay with it... Angels have been know to kill a whole bunch of first born children... and both christian and jews are okay with the drowning of most everyone and everything in the very damp-time of Noah... if the bible says it's okay, then as a species we seem to be cool with that on a number of levels... :^)

Isaiah 37:36-37
"Then the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the next morning—there were all the dead bodies! So Sennacherib king of Assyria broke camp and withdrew. He returned to Nineveh and stayed there. "

The Bible was written. compiled and corrupted by man. It's not a solid history book.
It's a mixture of truth, half-truth and spurious interpolation designed to further the Church's agenda and secure their power base.

There are verses PURPORTING to have God demand animal sacrifice and then there are verses where God declares animal sacrifice to be an "abomination" to Him, something He never asked for and He will forsake those who hands are stained with blood. Which is true? They can't both be true can they, even you can see that. Is God a bloodthirsty monster or a loving God?
Anyone with a modicum of wisdom and spiritual understanding can 'see' that the only sacrifice God has ever required is the 'sacrifice' of self in loving Service.

A few years ago, Armenia was hit by a terrible earthquake. Their was news footage of people in their neighbouring Muslim countries dancing in the streets declaring the earthquake was Allah's wrath on the Armenians for being their enemies (by not being Muslim).
This same sort of perverse thinking fashioned these stories.
Perchance there was a collective karmic element, like the plagues of Egypt, but again that is the universal law of sowing and reaping and nothing to do with vengeful angels. It's fantasy.

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Humans are more spiritually evolved than animals, though some people seem mindless of this.
It is the duty of the higher to care for the lower.
.

And this is the key point I've been looking for.... there are those who put themselves above animals, look down on them, think of them in terms that essentially lesson who they are. Some of those folks are corporate, some of those folks are religious, and some of those folks consider themselves to be spiritual-at-heart and well meaning...

And yet all tend to do the same thing... they define what they don't understand in terms that continually bolsters their viewpoint at the expense of the truth...

As to animals being "lower", this opinion is purely in regards to context.... as we drive our cars, sip on our machine-ground carrot juice, type away on a computer that was manufactured in factories, we have oriented ourselves to a rhythm that is heavily man-made. We judge ourselves based on how well we adapt to this paradigm. And yet animals are not wired for this rhythm.... what they are wired for they tend to do very well... they are wired in such a way that has served them for billions of years.... A human in the woods during the winter would be lost as to what to do if they were raised within our context... and yet the animals are wonderfully adept at having to navigate such challenges... In "their" environment "we" are the lower ones... we can think and think and idealize, and pontificate to no end, and yet we can't feed ourselves, or protect ourselves from the various challenges unless we "stoop to their level" and "effectively" learn what they know..

Animals are highly advanced in what they do... while we are the "thinking" species... we can think thoughts-about-things... animals are the "doing" species, they respond, and replicate, and adapt to real-time stimulus in such a way that would leave our "thinking" selves in the dust, should we be dropped within their environment...

So when someone suggests that we humans are "greater" and that animals are "lesser", I wince... for to do so is to ignore the base challenges and sheer genius of what it is to be of an "animal nature"...

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

The Bible was written. compiled and corrupted by man. It's not a solid history book.
It's a mixture of truth, half-truth and spurious interpolation designed to further the Church's agenda and secure their power base.

You're preaching to the choir on this one...

...you earlier mentioned "How would we perceive angels if they ate humans?"

And my response was to highlight the likelihood that, as a species, we'd probably be okay with angels eating humans, if our religious leaders were telling us it's okay... :^)

I've been looking into this issue, since it came up, and am finding the trends encouraging... There is actually a lot of motion out there suggesting that our population explosion as a species may be peaking, and shortly may be seeing a very natural decline... The speculations as to why are quite interesting...

Here's an article that goes into some detail... while there's plenty others out there exploring similar trends...

About That Overpopulation Problem
Research suggests we may actually face a declining world population in the coming years.

a clippit from the article:

A report issued last month by the Pew Research Center found that immigrant births fell from 102 per 1,000 women in 2007 to 87.8 per 1,000 in 2012. That helped bring the overall U.S. birthrate to a mere 64 per 1,000 women—not enough to sustain our current population.

Moreover, the poor, highly fertile countries that once churned out immigrants by the boatload are now experiencing birthrate declines of their own. From 1960 to 2009, Mexico’s fertility rate tumbled from 7.3 live births per woman to 2.4, India’s dropped from six to 2.5, and Brazil’s fell from 6.15 to 1.9. Even in sub-Saharan Africa, where the average birthrate remains a relatively blistering 4.66, fertility is projected to fall below replacement level by the 2070s. This change in developing countries will affect not only the U.S. population, of course, but eventually the world’s.

Read more at: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/01/world_population_may_actually_start_declining_not_ exploding.html

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Yes, soya production is a growing problem in the Amazon basin, but again livestock production is driving it.

Here's an interesting side note about animal cooperation in the form of good karma among animal species... since the advent of commercial farming a lot of pressure has been taken off the wildlife due to a shifting of where meat is coming from. Whether you like meat eating or not people are still likely to do so in large numbers. So the animals that sacrifice themselves for the sake of the other animals in the wild, may well be earning their good karma creds.

The human species has been exploding in number... and many animals were going extinct (some still are) due to the over-hunting by us humans in desperation for food and human oriented pleasures. It looks like this trend toward overpopulation may be peaking, along with the eventual decline of so much intense sacrifice. So while everyone was eating farmed food, look what else has been happening:

What Do We Do with Too Many White-tailed Deer?

With an estimated 30 million white-tailed deer in the United States today, it is difficult to believe these animals nearly became extinct just over a century ago. The United States was undergoing a profound transformation, facilitated in part by a rapidly expanding railroad network. In some ways, environmental changes benefited deer. The bounty hunting of gray wolf (Canis lupus) and cougar (Felis concolor), and the subjugation of indigenous peoples, reduced predation pressure on deer. At the same time, market hunting, weak enforcement of game laws, and habitat loss conspired to drive deer to dangerously low numbers by the late 1800s.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/biodiversity/rooney.html

So what if a higher animals soul happens to be looking-out for all...? on a higher level they "know" that such trends will take place... and that eventual decline in pressures will see the continuation of differing species... if it wasn't for farmed animals then the natural environment would fully be stripped-clean by now... so perhaps animals interpret sacrifice, and the advancement that comes with it, in a way similar to our own karmic sacrifices as a human, but in a differing context ...

...at a higher level, animals may indeed be looking out for each other, and thus helping us as well for the long haul... :^)

[knightofalbion]

Originally Posted by StephenK

I've been looking into this issue, since it came up, and am finding the trends encouraging... There is actually a lot of motion out there suggesting that our population explosion as a species may be peaking, and shortly may be seeing a very natural decline... The speculations as to why are quite interesting...

Here's an article that goes into some detail... while there's plenty others out there exploring similar trends...

About That Overpopulation Problem
Research suggests we may actually face a declining world population in the coming years.

a clippit from the article:

A report issued last month by the Pew Research Center found that immigrant births fell from 102 per 1,000 women in 2007 to 87.8 per 1,000 in 2012. That helped bring the overall U.S. birthrate to a mere 64 per 1,000 women—not enough to sustain our current population.

Because rates may be falling here and there that doesn't reflect the global trend.
The scientific view and the view of the United Nations is that world population will go to 9 billion by 2050. If the next 37 years are at the same rate as the past 37 years the figure will be 9.85 billion. A lot more people taking from a lot less resources. Some things can be swept under the carpet.
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

[knightofalbion]

Originally Posted by StephenK

And this is the key point I've been looking for.... there are those who put themselves above animals, look down on them, think of them in terms that essentially lesson who they are. Some of those folks are corporate, some of those folks are religious, and some of those folks consider themselves to be spiritual-at-heart and well meaning...

And yet all tend to do the same thing... they define what they don't understand in terms that continually bolsters their viewpoint at the expense of the truth...

As to animals being "lower", this opinion is purely in regards to context.... as we drive our cars, sip on our machine-ground carrot juice, type away on a computer that was manufactured in factories, we have oriented ourselves to a rhythm that is heavily man-made. We judge ourselves based on how well we adapt to this paradigm. And yet animals are not wired for this rhythm.... what they are wired for they tend to do very well... they are wired in such a way that has served them for billions of years.... A human in the woods during the winter would be lost as to what to do if they were raised within our context... and yet the animals are wonderfully adept at having to navigate such challenges... In "their" environment "we" are the lower ones... we can think and think and idealize, and pontificate to no end, and yet we can't feed ourselves, or protect ourselves from the various challenges unless we "stoop to their level" and "effectively" learn what they know..

Animals are highly advanced in what they do... while we are the "thinking" species... we can think thoughts-about-things... animals are the "doing" species, they respond, and replicate, and adapt to real-time stimulus in such a way that would leave our "thinking" selves in the dust, should we be dropped within their environment...

So when someone suggests that we humans are "greater" and that animals are "lesser", I wince... for to do so is to ignore the base challenges and sheer genius of what it is to be of an "animal nature"...

An angel is more spiritually evolved than a man.
A man* is more spiritually evolved than a mouse.
But angel, man or mouse, all are animated by the same Spirit of God. All the more reason not to hurt and kill.

(*And people are all at a different levels of spiritual evolution.)

'Animal nature'? It is our Divine nature we are working on. That is the whole point of physical incarnation and spiritual evolution.
Love is the fulfilling of the Law.

[knightofalbion]

Originally Posted by StephenK

You earlier mentioned "How would we perceive angels if they ate humans?"

And my response was to highlight the likelihood that, as a species, we'd probably be okay with angels eating humans, if our religious leaders were telling us it's okay... :^)

No, we'd brand them 'devils' and 'monsters'. We'd despise them. We'd declare that they ought to know better and lament the fact that they didn't.

[knightofalbion]

Originally Posted by StephenK

Here's an interesting side note about animal cooperation in the form of good karma among animal species... since the advent of commercial farming a lot of pressure has been taken off the wildlife due to a shifting of where meat is coming from. Whether you like meat eating or not people are still likely to do so in large numbers. So the animals that sacrifice themselves for the sake of the other animals in the wild, may well be earning their good karma creds.

The human species has been exploding in number... and many animals were going extinct (some still are) due to the over-hunting by us humans in desperation for food and human oriented pleasures. It looks like this trend toward overpopulation may be peaking, along with the eventual decline of so much intense sacrifice. So while everyone was eating farmed food, look what else has been happening:

What Do We Do with Too Many White-tailed Deer?

With an estimated 30 million white-tailed deer in the United States today, it is difficult to believe these animals nearly became extinct just over a century ago. The United States was undergoing a profound transformation, facilitated in part by a rapidly expanding railroad network. In some ways, environmental changes benefited deer. The bounty hunting of gray wolf (Canis lupus) and cougar (Felis concolor), and the subjugation of indigenous peoples, reduced predation pressure on deer. At the same time, market hunting, weak enforcement of game laws, and habitat loss conspired to drive deer to dangerously low numbers by the late 1800s.

So what if a higher animals soul happens to be looking-out for all...? on a higher level they "know" that such trends will take place... and that eventual decline in pressures will see the continuation of differing species... if it wasn't for farmed animals then the natural environment would fully be stripped-clean by now... so perhaps animals interpret sacrifice, and the advancement that comes with it, in a way similar to our own karmic sacrifices as a human, but in a differing context ...

...at a higher level, animals may indeed be looking out for each other, and thus helping us as well for the long haul... :^)

Absurd. Commercial farming means abuse, exploitation and killing on a massive scale. We're talking scores of billions of creatures annually, born not to be free, to live the life God intended, but to be abused, exploited and killed.

Who are you to say what animals want? 'Animal co-operation'? Was the slave trade 'human co-operation? An animal wants to live it's life happy and free, not confined and in misery. Nor does it want to have its throat slit in the slaughterhouse, anymore than you or I do.
Co-operation? Leave the cage doors open and the gates open and see how happy farmed animals are with their lot.

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Who are you to say what animals want?

... and who are you to say the same? :^)