Neo Advaita vs. Classical Advaita

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Think of it like .. I am that ..

...Universal Consciousness and then everything makes sense.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by shivatar

Maybe you weren't programmed by other people. Maybe you choose the ignorance so you could experience the joy of discovery.

Yes, Universal Consciousness, works like that in the dream play of existence.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi jimrich,

As far as I can see, the major difference between Neo Advaita vs. Classical Advaita, is that within the so-called ‘Neo-Advaita’ movement, both exponents and followers possess a predominantly or even exclusively conceptual and intellectual understanding of some principles, that are as often misunderstood in terms of both premise and application, as they are replicated and reinforced in clever dialogue.

In the dream play of Universal Consciousness, anything is possible or can happen including all that you, Universal Consciousness, just mentioned.

These tenets appear to be based on numerous faulty and unquestioned assumptions - what amounts to a rigid doctrine, and self-proclaimed as “radical”, largely because they are without the direct knowing through actual realization, which, was always implied by ‘Classical’, e.g., a legitimate assumption, because realization was traditionally understood to be an absolute requirement of the yoga.

That's how you, Universal Consciousness, set it all up in your dream play.

It is the facile modern dispensing of that requirement for direct knowing by identity - realisation - and replacing it with a superficial separative indirect conceptual re-orientation as the realisation itself, which appears to suffice in-and-of-itself and constituting the so-called ‘radical’ element, but which actually renders it ineffective as a practice by obviating real practice accordingly.

Your dream play gets pretty intricate at times.

The actual ‘practice’ apparently then becomes the subsequent dependence on clever word-games and intellectual debate, convoluted defences, and invalidation and intellectual coercion of sorts (often by rotely citing the accepted doctrine), in order to promote and sustain the belief system. And they’ve evidently gotten much facility, popularity, and validation through abundant internet access in that regard, both in dissemination and assimilation, by attracting droves of disaffected intellectuals looking for (imo) ‘the big easy answer’. They have also received much deserved and valid criticism as a result, as well.

You, Universal Consciousness, can get pretty far when you want to.

“I preach” (that’s my practice), but “you practice” (what I preach). By virtue of my preaching, it means I have practiced and therefore implicitly understand, therefore I preach.

Universal Consciousness quite often "preaches" to and judges itself in it's dream play. You, Universal Consciousness, is all that there is!

That is frequently the message.

...That you, Universal Consciousness, apparently manifest.

Just my .02 fwiw.
~ J

Universal Consciousness has spoken! Let the dream play continue.....
"empty phenomena roll on" ~ Buddha

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by django

in the long journey towards Self.

There is no "long journey" - you already are Self or Universal Consciousness even now. There is only Universal Consciousness or Self here and now!

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Vinayaka

I agree with this. If by some strange or lucky chance, one's path does cross with a Self-Realised soul, (they are incredibly rare)

LOL, look in a mirror to find one!

there are two things to notice:
1) That soul will be emitting a tremendous perceivable energy
2) They will have to pause and 'come out' from that that they are in order to be aware in the ego/I. So if you refer to them during regular conversation, they won't actually immediately know who you're talking about.

Seems to me that all of this is about the separate self or ego when the entire drama is simply you, Universal Consciousness, having some fun within your apparent dream play of existence or life. There is only you, Universal Consciousness.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by no1wakesup

Even to define non duality conceptually, within the duality of this existence, leaves you with the opposite, which is no existence or reality at all.

You, Universal Consciousness, are all that there is and can never NOT exist.

Its a question from a mind seeking an answer where no known experienced or reality is available to directly draw from.

You, Universal Consciousness, are way more than just a "mind".

So its not a convenient or safe for maintaing what really wants to continue. You can't go into maintaining your individual fortitude because there is nothing in place to support it.

You, Universal Consciousness, can do and be anything that you want in your dram play here.

There are no ceilings, walls or floors. If there is nothing to hold onto then there must be no one there needing to grasp at anything. The mind, in a grasping reality, seeks spiritually or otherwise, to secretly maintain its own sense of self. Ultimately, that's not what happems.

All that is happening is you, Universal Consciousness, are pretending to be all these apparent forms and conditions in the dream play of existence [as member: awareness has stated].

We are just fkng with a notion of it here. Better for the mind to do this for ****s and giggles then to   see this as serious. One would provide provocative entertainment and self serving purpose (to become enlightened) while the ladder would produce deeper anxiety, depression and other mental disorders.

Which is all just happening in your apparent play as Universal Consciousness.

It's not a club you join.

It's a club that you have apparently manifested

There are no members

Just you, Universal Consciousness. Have a ball...........

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jimrich

LOL,something rarely seen at forums!


I see this as an ego or separate self defense.


It "exists" as a feature of the ego or separate self (to use Rupert Spira's terminology) or the 'me" (as Tony Parsons says).


IMO, our conversation is occuring between two 'me's or egos but I don't see it as a problem to innocently discuss things AS TWO FRIENDS. The 'me' or ego can quite often become upset, frightened or angry and then the conversation becomes nasty. Two conscious beings would most likely NOT have this talk because they are completely fulfilled and have better things to do. For the time being, I, the ego or 'me', am happy to sit here and talk with you, another 'me'. When we "awaken", we most likely will not come to forums again but, for now, this is OK and I, the ego, am enjoying it and learning quite a lot here.


In a way, everything is both real and unreal or an illusion. The question might be: Is it bearable? Is this illusion OK? Am I happy in this illusion" Would I rather be somewhere else or doing something else? Most folks are HAPPY with the illusion of self in another illusion called life and so do not bother to seek answers or solutions while others are NOT very happy with this illusion and go looking for answers and solutions - to India or at forums, etc. The separate self may or may not be happy while the Real me is ALWAYS happy.


There's just ONE unity or Isness. Unity is all that there is, but the 'me' cannot see that nor does it even need to. What is, is!


The isolated self or 'me' HAS TO act on it's own interests since it only knows itself and it's interests in having what it wants and SURVIVING.


The ego or isolated self (nice term) simply cannot go the "middle way" nor express "loving kindness" whilst engaging in ego defenses or offenses to get what it wants and needs.


I see: escapism, narcissism, dehumanization, detachment and societal problems as basically ego defenses or offenses that are all designed to enhance or protect the non-existent ego or isolated 'me' which is why masters have long warned about the dangers and problems surrounding the ego or false self.


Which demonstrates more ego defenses held by ego-bound neo-advaitans and others who NEED to defend their separate selves with such foolishness. An aware being would never recommend such stuff.



The defensive ego doesn't care if its true or not and a master doesn't NEED it to be true or not.



At the risk of violating the rules, I am including a link to two videos which I believe demonstrate both the nature of the separate self or "disturbed ego" and it's non-existence as experienced by two "bothered" Seekers. .......enjoy.....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVdsVwiRTvI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq248KMOh8I&t=104s

P.S.Please notice how relieved and happy the Seekers become once they discover that the bothered 'me' does not even exist and they are then left simply as HAPPINESS.

Jim, thanks for your response
I can't usually make time for the line by line response so I just have to do it all together. But here are my thoughts....

Agreed. The "isolated self" is a false and extremely damaging construct...the ultimate divide and conquer tool for those operating at the top out of fear, greed, and a lust for power and control.

The individuated consciousness exists and is equally "real"...consciousness is eternal and presumably continues to exist and co-exists as One AND within One as many. Consciousness is the ultimate fractal and the ultimate mystery.

Yet whatever One actually comprises, it is no doubt far beyond consciousness, emptiness (the field of being or ground of emanation), interbeing, and/or anything else we could ever apprehend. We look to consciousness because it is the primary or only eternal emanation we can grasp.

Given that grand limitation, I feel too much focus on the unknowable One quickly becomes a bit facile, aside from acknowledging that the ultimate reality of one surely exists but its apprehension is utterly unknowable from the place of mental consciousness. Only the mystics, with a heart-led consciousness, can speak beyond this point...and it is only via illumination, poetry, might and awe, and lovingkindness...as approximations or representations.

Given that all consciousness is real within the fractal spectrum of our existence and perception...and is either consciousness with or without its varying emanations of consciousness (matter, time)...then I speak equally of emptiness and interbeing as aspects of One or Unity. We cannot know that these comprise the totality of One, but they comprise aspects of our known reality or apprehension of oneness or unity. To the extent that consciousness is eternal and the ultimate arbiter of reality (or illusion) for us, then all consciousness is equally real (or illusory) for us, albeit not equally aware or awakened.

We are directly equal to One in our fractal consciousness, which defines our reality but does not limit that of One in totality. We too are still real...but we cannot equate our reality (consciousness) to the totality of One, except in the infinitely fractal sense of One consciousness. To which the entirety of our emanated reality is tied. But there is more, beyond consciousness, emptiness, and interbeing. There is always more. It is simply beyond our perception to apprehend, even as awakened beings, and even for the gurus.

The other main thing I want to say about what you've posted is that within our known realm (that of consciousness), there is more than just the problematic "isolated self" and emptiness. Within our reality or realm, there is an infinity of interbeing within the emptiness -- and an infinity of emptiness within the interbeing. It is not just "isolated self" (false, misdirected) or emptiness. I perceive our reality of consciousness and its emanations as being equally of interbeing and emptiness. Another way to look at this, is as an infinity of fractal Oneness in interbeing (we are that) in co-creation with all that is (That Which we can know).

The mystics would say after all initial awakening, the real awakening is always through the heart-led consciousness, where the mind of the isolated self has died to awareness of both interbeing and unity...and then has awakened in service to the heart-led, awakened consciousness. And they have also said, for millennia, that only through the transformation of the heart-led consciousness can we ever (at least more truly) know What is. In the end, it's all about going through this transformation. Whatever leads away from centre, from our humanity in interbeing, and from the heart-led consciousness is most likely misdirection...and whatever leads one into these, is spot on

I've quite enjoyed discussing this courteously as friends, very important, that...

Peace & blessings
7L

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Agreed. The "isolated self" is a false and extremely damaging construct...the ultimate divide and conquer tool for those operating at the top out of fear, greed, and a lust for power and control.

And the joke is that this false 'me' doesn't even exist EXCEPT within our minds and fixed belief systems. It's like Santa Claus. Do you still believe in Santa Clause? Santa seems REAL to children but not real to adults yet we all FIRMLY believe in a total phantom called 'me'. There is a me here - just not a false one!

The individuated consciousness exists and is equally "real"

Not for me! It's like Santa. It's a completely imaginary being that I no longer take for "real".

...consciousness is eternal and presumably continues to exist and co-exists as One AND within One as many.

Consciousness is infinite and only appears to manifest as "many" but it is never anything other than ONE. What looks like lot of separate, individual "stuff" is just Infinite Consciousness APPEARING as (in) all that "stuff" - including this thing sitting here typing these words. Consciousness or Awareness alone is.

Consciousness is the ultimate fractal and the ultimate mystery.

Yep! (said by no one to no one)

Yet whatever One actually comprises, it is no doubt far beyond consciousness, emptiness (the field of being or ground of emanation), interbeing, and/or anything else we could ever apprehend. We look to consciousness because it is the primary or only eternal emanation we can grasp.

LOL, maybe you can grasp it but I can't!

Given that grand limitation, I feel too much focus on the unknowable One quickly becomes a bit facile, aside from acknowledging that the ultimate reality of one surely exists but its apprehension is utterly unknowable from the place of mental consciousness.

That's true for my imagined ego. But I, pure Awareness, don't need to know anything nor do I even care. What is simply is.

Only the mystics, with a heart-led consciousness, can speak beyond this point...and it is only via illumination, poetry, might and awe, and lovingkindness...as approximations or representations.

That's because "mystics" are in touch with Reality or pure Knowing.

Given that all consciousness is real within the fractal spectrum of our existence and perception...and is either consciousness with or without its varying emanations of consciousness (matter, time)...then I speak equally of emptiness and interbeing as aspects of One or Unity.

They are not simply "aspects of" - they ARE "matter, time"... and all else. There is ONLY the nameless IT.

We cannot know that these comprise the totality of One, but they comprise aspects of our known reality or apprehension of oneness or unity.

I don't know who/what this "we" is but I, the ego, don't know and yet I, Reality, simply don't care. All I, Awareness, "know" is ____________.

To the extent that consciousness is eternal and the ultimate arbiter of reality (or illusion) for us, then all consciousness is equally real (or illusory) for us, albeit not equally aware or awakened.

Yes, that is how the isolated ego sees it. LOL, Consciousness IS US!

We are directly equal to One in our fractal consciousness, which defines our reality but does not limit that of One in totality.

There is no "we", "our" or any separate individual anywhere. There is ONLY the One appearing as all those Santa's or egos. This One cannot be "limited" in any way other than to PRETEND to be limited as an ego or person in the dream play of life.

We too are still real

There is NO "we" (or group of Santa's) there is only you, the One or Absolute appearing as a group of Santa's or egos. Bodies, minds, emotions, etc. are relatively "real" but egos are completely false.

...but we cannot equate our reality (consciousness) to the totality of One, except in the infinitely fractal sense of One consciousness.

Only the One can appear to equate anything as an apparent someone apparently doing something. It's all a cosmic dream staged by you, the One.

To which the entirety of our emanated reality is tied. But there is more, beyond consciousness, emptiness, and interbeing. There is always more. It is simply beyond our perception to apprehend, even as awakened beings, and even for the gurus.

I guess that can be true - from a relative perspective. The One is laughing out loud over this because none of it matters in the cosmic dream play.

The other main thing I want to say about what you've posted is that within our known realm (that of consciousness), there is more than just the problematic "isolated self" and emptiness.

Of course not. There is not two....nonduality. There is ONLY One....emptiness "appearing" as both emptiness AND objects such as an "isolated self" or ego. (I love the word ego - it's so much fun!) It's Nothing and Everything - a Paradox!

Within our reality or realm, there is an infinity of interbeing within the emptiness

Apparently. And yet all there is is the One, you, appearing as an infinity of interbeingness (or whatever).

-- and an infinity of emptiness within the interbeing.

Sorry but there is no "interbeing" within anything. There is ONLY emptiness or the nameless All appearing as stuff like: "interbeing". It's quite easy to get caught up in believing that stuff like "interbeing" and "isolated self" are real but, upon close examination, they are all manifestations or projections from and OF the One or Source or whatever you call your self these days.

It is not just "isolated self" (false, misdirected) or emptiness.

That's right! It's JUST emptiness sometimes appearing as fullness. Nothing/Everything. Real/un-Real, Santa/not-Santa. LOL the cosmic game or dream play!

I perceive our reality of consciousness and its emanations as being equally of interbeing and emptiness.

I don't. It's all the One appearing to be lots of separate "stuff" like this keyboard, desk, computer, hands typing, cars going by outside, clock ticking, foot soaking in hot water, etc. All just happening as emptiness wishes.

Another way to look at this, is as an infinity of fractal Oneness in interbeing (we are that) in co-creation with all that is (That Which we can know).

I no longer believe in separation or separate "things". Santa is no longer real to me and life is just one whole experience or happening appearing to be lots of separate stuff but emptiness or wholeness is there the whole time "appearing as" lots of separate stuff. Its a dream. A play put on by you, infinite being.

The mystics would say after all initial awakening, the real awakening is always through the heart-led consciousness, where the mind of the isolated self has died to awareness of both interbeing and unity...and then has awakened in service to the heart-led, awakened consciousness.

Hmmm, so, what do you say?

And they have also said, for millennia, that only through the transformation of the heart-led consciousness can we ever (at least more truly) know What is.

Well, it's pretty simple to "know". Sitting there typing those words to jim is WHAT IS. Just that. You, in your room of space, typing words and breathing air - THAT'S IT....THAT'S WHAT IS!

In the end, it's all about going through this transformation. Whatever leads away from centre, from our humanity in interbeing, and from the heart-led consciousness is most likely misdirection...and whatever leads one into these, is spot on

For me the only "transformation" needed is to be OK with who/what I am right here and right now - just as I am and happy with and as what already is...... just this! This is all that there is and it's good enough.

I've quite enjoyed discussing this courteously as friends, very important, that...

Peace & blessings
7L

I enjoy these friendly, respectful talks and wish you all the best,
jim

[7luminaries]

Jim...hello! Broadly, agreed with what you've said.

Just keeping in mind that since even our concept of One, whether "limited" to consciousness or not, is limited and thus not One, except as fractal consciousness. Which is cool and totally fine with me But since we don't know what is beyond our conceptual understanding of eternal consciousness that encompasses all that is.

And when I discuss aspects, this is to simply give the idea of the infinity of variety That Is... not that It Is not what -- the oneness -- that it surely Is, hahaha. More only to point to the realisation that whatever we can possible imagine, there is more to What Is. There is always more

Given that grand limitation, I feel too much focus on the unknowable One quickly becomes a bit facile, aside from acknowledging that the ultimate
reality of one surely exists but its apprehension

is utterly unknowable from the place of mental consciousness.

That's true for my imagined ego. But I, pure Awareness, don't need to know anything nor do I even care. What is simply is.

For example...regarding how there is always more...
Usually, this pure awareness refers to emptiness, or the ground of being or emanation. But there is more beyond pure awareness or interbeing. Beyond eternal consciousness itself. And beyond this, we lack knowledge or wisdom or awareness of anything regarding what "we" or "I" (big I? LOL) would or would not do or know or care about. All of this is out of scope...so we simply use the limits of what we know is possible and infinite to describe What Is and refer to What Is, whilst not ever truly apprehending the fullness of What Is...which (we can realise) is far beyond all that we point to as possible and infinite. That's the great mystery, isn't it?

Einstein and Tagore touched on this same sort of conversation years ago. Einstein said I know there is more (ultimately a mystical belief), that there is Source (in so many words) and Tagore said (in so many words) even if there is (Something, which lies even beyond "all That Is according to us"), it is only real to us to the degree that we can apprehend or conceive of it in some way. That is, we cannot truly conceive of What Is, but what we are able do is conceive of a Source which is pure consciousness and therefore infinite and suitably "beyond us" -- but which is still apprehensible by our human consciousness. And so that is what we do.

Tagore's subtle implication is that, at some point, we will limit ourselves spiritually by trying to apprehend and to some extent even discuss What Is with words and mental constructs, with what we can understand via mental consciousness and intellect. Ultimately, (as I understood it) Tagore pointed Einstein past science and philosophy and intellectual understanding to the way of the mystic, of the heart-led consciousness. Because he perceived that Einstein was finaly ready to go there, having spent a lifetime in the realm of ideas and logical discourse and theory and measurements and mathematical relationships.

Originally Posted by 7L

The mystics would say after all initial awakening, the real awakening is always through the heart-led consciousness, where the mind of the isolated self has died to awareness of both interbeing and unity...and then has awakened in service to the heart-led, awakened consciousness.

Hmmm, so, what do you say?

I say that broadly, I agree with the mystics...

Peace & blessings,
7L

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Jim...hello! Broadly, agreed with what you've said.

Cool!

Just keeping in mind that since even our concept of One, whether "limited" to consciousness or not, is limited and thus not One, except as fractal consciousness. Which is cool and totally fine with me

In psychotherapy and also in Self Esteem work, the point was made over and over that we or I need to speak of my own, personal, direct experiences and knowledge but not so much from theories or 2nd hand info out of books, videos, meetings, lectures, shop-talk or anything that I cannot personally attest to, so, much of what is said herein will have to come from what I currently know or have experiences with. My 'concept of the One" comes from a few experiences of being One or not-two. Those 'magical" experiences were very brief and did not last long but left an indescribable impression of Oneness or Unity so I am willing to speak of and from such experiences but NOT from theories or speculations regarding others or any book knowledge of which I have tons.

But since we don't know what is beyond our conceptual understanding of eternal consciousness that encompasses all that is.

I don't now who this "we" is that doesn't know such and such but I certainly can speak for what I currently know and I know what is here, right now and am not at all concerned with what is "beyond" just this. My little ego worries about what's "beyond" it but I, Awareness, couldn't care less. What has been your own, personal experience with "not knowing what is beyond such and such"?

And when I discuss aspects, this is to simply give the idea of the infinity of variety That Is... not that It Is not what -- the oneness -- that it surely Is, hahaha.

Is this about your own, personal experiences of "aspects' and "the oneness"? I'd be very interested to discover what you personally know or have experienced with any of this.

More only to point to the realisation that whatever we can possible imagine, there is more to What Is. There is always more

Is this what you currently know for certain and are experiencing? I guess there is "always more" but, SO WHAT? What is here & now is good enough for me since I live here and now. Let the "more" happen when it happens - assuming there even is such a thing.

is utterly unknowable from the place of mental consciousness.

Is this your experience? I'd say from the "place of" the limited ego or separate self.
For me, it is "knowable" - just not describable. I.e., I KNOW I am but I cannot describe it with conventional language. I can only say that I "feel" this "wordlessness" or "what is". I'd be curious to know what you feel or experience.

For example...regarding how there is always more...
Usually, this pure awareness refers to emptiness, or the ground of being or emanation.

None of that works for me. How about you? What's your direct experience of: emptiness, ground of being, emanation and pure awareness? What have you personally experience with any of that? For me, it's just this or just what is - and I like it! "Isness" might come the closest to describing the ineffable. Buddha called it "empty phenomena".

But there is more beyond pure awareness or interbeing. Beyond eternal consciousness itself.

I haven't found any, have you? Tell us about your own, personal experiences with what's beyond those.

And beyond this, we lack knowledge or wisdom or awareness of anything regarding what "we" or "I" (big I? LOL) would or would not do or know or care about.

Well, I'm not a "we" so you'll have to speak for your self about all of that. I only (currently) know that this is it and it's good enough for me. I don't need to know about what's beyond, bigger, more, knowledge, wisdom, do or care about It seems to me that only the limited ego cares about or needs any of that.

All of this is out of scope...so we simply use the limits of what we know is possible and infinite to describe What Is and refer to What Is, whilst not ever truly apprehending the fullness of What Is...which (we can realise) is far beyond all that we point to as possible and infinite. That's the great mystery, isn't it?

I have no idea what "we" can or cannot do, be, have, know, etc. but I find that most of what is here, right now, starting with my own identity, is a great mystery - especially for my limited ego. As for me, namelessness, there are no mysteries, no questions and no answers - just what's happening right now - as these words are being typed.

Einstein and Tagore touched on this same sort of conversation years ago. Einstein said I know there is more (ultimately a mystical belief), that there is Source (in so many words) and Tagore said (in so many words) even if there is (Something, which lies even beyond "all That Is according to us"), it is only real to us to the degree that we can apprehend or conceive of it in some way.

LOL, two (brilliant) egos making wild GUESSES! I wonder if either of them ever figured out what simply is?

That is, we cannot truly conceive of What Is, but what we are able do is conceive of a Source which is pure consciousness and therefore infinite and suitably "beyond us" -- but which is still apprehensible by our human consciousness. And so that is what we do.

I have no idea who or what this "we" is that does all those things but I, jim, can "conceive" of "what is" - I just can't describe or explain it. If you can do any of that please tell me how you, personally, do it.

Tagore's subtle implication is that, at some point, we will limit ourselves spiritually by trying to apprehend and to some extent even discuss What Is with words and mental constructs, with what we can understand via mental consciousness and intellect.

LOL, my only suggestion would be for Tagore to drop the "we" bit and speak for and about hm/her self. I don't see myself fitting into Tagore's or anyone else's version of this "we". Plenty of "mental constructs" already exist to understand "what is" but understanding may not BEING it and the mind-made ego cannot go there because we/you already ARE it. About all there is to "understand" is that this IS it. Search for Charlie Hayes at Youtube www.youtube.com/watch?v=-saYGxU98FE and he can and will tell you what "it" is.

Ultimately, (as I understood it) Tagore pointed Einstein past science and philosophy and intellectual understanding to the way of the mystic, of the heart-led consciousness. Because he perceived that Einstein was finaly ready to go there, having spent a lifetime in the realm of ideas and logical discourse and theory and measurements and mathematical relationships.

OK, I just looked up Tagore and Einstein here: http://www.brainpickings.org/2012/04...in-met-tagore/
Haven't read much but can see that it's significant. I'll look them over.
One thing I love about most modern sages is how they are willing to say what they know and experience FOR THEM SELF along with some speculation and lectures about: you, we, them, us, they, those, others, etc. There is nothing as powerful as a personal testimony, IMO. Even Ramana Maharshi occasionally said, "That's been my experience, anyway."

I say that broadly, I agree with the mystics...

OK - so what is your own, personal, direct experience with any of this stuff????

Peace & blessings,
jim