No God

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I would agree there are always deeper subconscious issues. What we deal with at a conscious level is just like the tip of the ice berg.

I would disagree that the way is to dig deeper into the underlying issue in a mental way. That is no different than psychology. There is a reason why the Buddha taught meditation and the power that silence brings. It is through that silence than one can move beyond the mind and allow for issues to drop.

Also, if one is still reacting to an upset then one still has the obstruction and it isn't cleared. One has to get to the point where it just flows through non attaching. You don't do that by analyzing the issue or defeating it with another thought.

'One has to get to the point where it just flows through non attaching. You don't do that by analyzing the issue or defeating it with another thought.'


Agree, but not everyone can do this, it does take time and practice to get to this state. Some like to analyze issues which really is just giving fuel to the fire and like you pointed out remaining attached....

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

'One has to get to the point where it just flows through non attaching. You don't do that by analyzing the issue or defeating it with another thought.'


Agree, but not everyone can do this, it does take time and practice to get to this state. Some like to analyze issues which really is just giving fuel to the fire and like you pointed out remaining attached....

Thank you sky,

I would agree it takes a lot of work you could say to get there.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I would agree there are always deeper subconscious issues. What we deal with at a conscious level is just like the tip of the ice berg.

I would disagree that the way is to dig deeper into the underlying issue in a mental way. That is no different than psychology. There is a reason why the Buddha taught meditation and the power that silence brings. It is through that silence than one can move beyond the mind and allow for issues to drop.

Also, if one is still reacting to an upset then one still has the obstruction and it isn't cleared. One has to get to the point where it just flows through non attaching. You don't do that by analyzing the issue or defeating it with another thought.

----

In practice it happens something like this: you are aware of the vedana and everything is fine until discomfort occurs and the mind starts to react with aversion. That's associated with NT1 'there is suffering'. Then one notices that reactivity to vedana is how they generate a lot of misery. That's NT2, the cause of suffering. Then you cease reacting and notice you have ceased suffering regardless of discomfort (suffering ends), and lastly you realise meditation is observation sans reactivity and you practice that and hone the mind to feel subtler levels of vedana and more nuanced reactivity, ceasing the reactive process at those deeper levels. That's associated with NT4, the way to end suffering.

[Gem]

Not that I ever said anything about defeating one thought with another in case anyone gets the impression that I did. I merely mentioned that if you are aware of the sensations in the body, you will realise how all your reactivity is over sensation. This is phrased in the dependent origins as 'from feeling craving arises'.


You have to find out what's true rather than try to achieve special meditative states. I like the way Krishnamurti put it: "It is the truth that liberates; not your efforts to be free"

FWIW I understood your first post Gem

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

----

In practice it happens something like this: you are aware of the vedana and everything is fine until discomfort occurs and the mind starts to react with aversion. That's associated with NT1 'there is suffering'. Then one notices that reactivity to vedana is how they generate a lot of misery. That's NT2, the cause of suffering. Then you cease reacting and notice you have ceased suffering regardless of discomfort (suffering ends), and lastly you realise meditation is observation sans reactivity and you practice that and hone the mind to feel subtler levels of vedana and more nuanced reactivity, ceasing the reactive process at those deeper levels. That's associated with NT4, the way to end suffering.

Right,

But going from observing to ceasing to react or ending suffering only happens when the obstruction has truly been eliminated.

If there are subtler levels of the issues that you are digging deeper to try to notice then you really haven't cleared the issue/obstruction. Again it is just the tip of the ice berg.

Mindfulness in daily life like you are describing is when one has realized silence to one degree or another in daily life. You are able to let the emotional upset flow through but it isn't the end of suffering. There is still an emotional upset/obstruction that is being hit and has to be let go off. With that being said obstructions truly never end, it is an ongoing thing.

[r6r6]

..............Space( Time *) i (* Time )Space..........

True silence is the macro-infinite non-occupied space beyond/outside of our finite, occupied space Universe.

If we truly listen, we never hear silence.

If we truly care, we aim/direct/steer that noise into patterns of order, that, we can then apply via verbalization or just hands on touch, to that which we feel is appropriate to fit our personal needs or needs of others.

Quietening of the mind is the action of putting in order, the actions around us, so we may go forward in peaceful contemplemation of the greater wholistic set, and all of its subset parts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I believe that the infants first In-Spiration of breath ---and umbilical chord disconnect-- that seperates the infants ego { i } identifier from the mothers ego { i } identifier.

Our first breath { prana } is IN-spire-ation.

Spire = cone and the minimal cone is a triangular based pryamid aka tetra{4}hedron. LINK

At the peak of contraction of lungs ---Ex-Spiration--- we see increase of layers of outer surface Gravity ( ) increasing to create the largest possible black hole that is referred to some as a singularity ((((*)))) yet is is not and can never be such singularity.

At the peak of expansion of the lungs ---In-Spiration--- we have entropic heat death ---via Dark Energy )(--- where all fermionic matter and bosonic forces have been dispersed as one very large and very flat{ lowest frequency } photon.

Eternity is to time, ---/\/\/---> occupied space that is specifically entropic aka the arrow-of-time
As infinite is to space, ---Space( )( )Space--- occupied { syntropic } and the non-occupied { macro-irrelevant }

https://www.sciencealert.com/penrose...clic-cosmology

..."These Swirls of Light Could Be Signs of a Previous Universe Existing Before Ours"...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/relig...iverse_1.shtml

...."Buddhism has no creator god to explain the origin of the universe. Instead, it teaches that everything depends on everything else: present events are caused by past events and become the cause of future events.
Indian religions often see space and time as cyclical, such that world-systems come into being, survive for a time, are destroyed and then are remade. In Buddhism this happens naturally without the intervention of gods."...

Heavenly This Dance, That Swirls Around,


Inward and Outward, Finite the Bounds.

[/quote]

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Right,

But going from observing to ceasing to react or ending suffering only happens when the obstruction has truly been eliminated.

If there are subtler levels of the issues that you are digging deeper to try to notice then you really haven't cleared the issue/obstruction. Again it is just the tip of the ice berg.

Mindfulness in daily life like you are describing is when one has realized silence to one degree or another in daily life. You are able to let the emotional upset flow through but it isn't the end of suffering. There is still an emotional upset/obstruction that is being hit and has to be let go off. With that being said obstructions truly never end, it is an ongoing thing.

' With that being said obstructions truly never end, it is an ongoing thing.'

So you think The Buddha had obstructions after His Enlightenment ?
__________________

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Right,

But going from observing to ceasing to react or ending suffering only happens when the obstruction has truly been eliminated.

If there are subtler levels of the issues that you are digging deeper to try to notice then you really haven't cleared the issue/obstruction. Again it is just the tip of the ice berg.

Mindfulness in daily life like you are describing is when one has realized silence to one degree or another in daily life. You are able to let the emotional upset flow through but it isn't the end of suffering. There is still an emotional upset/obstruction that is being hit and has to be let go off. With that being said obstructions truly never end, it is an ongoing thing.

In the meditation practice one will begin to feel obstructions as harder, denser sensations in the body, and when that is the case, one knows 'here is a hard dense feeling', and leaves it 'as it is' without any aversion toward it nor desire for a better feeling to replace it.


Those dense areas tend to have an emotional underpinning which one may or may not be aware of, but the emotional storms can arise as a facet of the obstruction clearing. In that case it is better to understand that the emotional storm is the result of past volitions, not current ones,and is a sankara generated in the past rather than one being generated now.



One knows 'this emotional storm has arisen' and leaves it 'as it is' assigning no importance to it, having no aversion toward it nor desiring it should be otherwise.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Mindfulness in daily life like you are describing is when one has realized silence to one degree or another in daily life. You are able to let the emotional upset flow through but it isn't the end of suffering. There is still an emotional upset/obstruction that is being hit and has to be let go off. With that being said obstructions truly never end, it is an ongoing thing.

This is some preliminary practice basics, but not reflective of the depth, breadth and significant potentialities expressed in Buddhist teachings, and real life practitioners

Ymmv

Jl