does sin corrupt our logic

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by inspirit

You can choose to love God or not. You can choose to "love your neighbor as yourself" or not. So there is a choice.

"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His son in propitiation for our sins." - The Bible
1 John 4

"Heavenly Father, we know that by nature we are sinful and unclean. We have sinned against you in thought word and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you our whole heart. We have not loved our neighbor as ourselves..."
Lutheran liturgy repeated in every service.

Pleroo, if you have a memory issue, you asked Soul where and what translation was found the statement by Jesus concerning the image on the coin He was given.

[inspirit]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

In this "Matrix", there is no choice inspirite. That's the point. Yes what is called "Nature" in the lower animal, is sin in humanity. Jesus clarified to the people that if you've hated, you've committed murder. Lusted, then you've comitted fornication.
Read again my post prior. God loves us and provided for us so we can know we are redeemed and reconciled.

Jesus Himself stated, "The son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for the many."
Again, which had been prophesied through the ages of the writings.
______________________

"Pleroo", See Mark chapter 12, Mathew chapter 22.

Sin isn't the lower nature. That's just being human. Sin is when you choose to embrace evil. When you know that something is wrong and you choose it anyway.

Committing a crime in your heart is obviously a bad thing but it's only sin when you've chosen it after coming to the full understanding and acknowledgement that it is bad. In other words, committing a crime in your heart is only a sin if you know that it is wrong and it is deliberate.

Jesus said, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." He said that because we do have a choice. When you understand the difference between right and wrong, choose right otherwise you will be committing sin.

Perhaps we are just arguing over semantics. What I consider sin though is a choice of doing bad even though you fully understand that what you are doing is wrong. I think you consider sin just anything bad. Yes it's human nature to do bad things but that's because humans make mistakes. It's human nature. Not because humans are predisposed to choosing evil over good when they are fully informed and understand the ramifications of their actions.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by inspirit

Sin isn't the lower nature. That's just being human. Sin is when you choose to embrace evil. When you know that something is wrong and you choose it anyway.

Committing a crime in your heart is obviously a bad thing but it's only sin when you've chosen it after coming to the full understanding and acknowledgement that it is bad. In other words, committing a crime in your heart is only a sin if you know that it is wrong and it is deliberate.

Jesus said, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." He said that because we do have a choice. When you understand the difference between right and wrong, choose right otherwise you will be committing sin.

Perhaps we are just arguing over semantics. What I consider sin though is a choice of doing bad even though you fully understand that what you are doing is wrong. I think you consider sin just anything bad. Yes it's human nature to do bad things but that's because humans make mistakes. It's human nature. Not because humans are predisposed to choosing evil over good when they are fully informed and understand the ramifications of their actions.

Inspirit, what is, "being human" ? Look around you in the world and don't be so insular.
Humanity is the developed, "animal/mammal" in time and space, which Physics today tells us is illusory. "Space/Time".

Yes, inspirit, your asessment true in one sense. But scripture states, for a reason, again, " For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
In the Old Testament we also read, "There are none good, no not one".

Jesus went to the cross in judgement not for any fault or sin of His own, but for "the world". Again, as was long prophesied that He would.

Originally, there is only Spirit...
We read text on the fall of the archangel, for one.
Also, Adam's fall which changed, "the world". Which includes you and I today, in the paradigm of "illusory" time and space. ( Einstein)

Ego, which we are all born into in this organic paradigm, in time and space, is equated with sin, and satan.

After the ten commandments were given by God through Moses, the Lord set up the substitutional sacrifices for the sake of mankind, involving Conscience.

The ultimate purpose for this was for Christ's mission in the then future, Who would take upon Himself the sins of the world. Yours and mine. Why?
Only perfection can abide with God in heaven.

Jesus being perfect, switched places with us for the sake of salvation of all who would hear and recieve Him.
God's gift.

Inspirit, when we come out of childhood, ultimately all inherit the sinful nature, the animal/ mammal and organic situation becomes evident.
No one is perfect. But God is perfect, Who Jesus is incarnate.

[sky]

Quote..." No one is perfect. But God is perfect."

If we are made in Gods image and likeness then are we not all perfect. We are all God but it's only from ego that we percieve separateness...

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Pleroo, if you have a memory issue, you asked Soul where and what translation was found the statement by Jesus concerning the image on the coin He was given.

Well, I am getting older, but I think my memory is okay. The question I asked was regarding the last portion of the passage IamSoul quoted, which is not found in either Mark or Matthew. But, IamSoul already explained that it was found in the book of Thomas. Thanks anyway, though.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by IamSoul49

Hello All

Pleroo;

Yer,that must have been a tough choice for Him to make..Im sure thats why He told that first leper,PLEASE,go TO the pharisee first,peacefully,no fuss - He wanted to get them on side,to prove His claims without all that public drama that would surely follow such an event,then have them use their established authority to spread this new truth to the people..The thing is - the issue itself - the reason he came - is juts too absolutely vitally and ETERNALLY important - we were TRAPPED HERE,under false pretenses - and this issue was so vital to overcome,that a few pharisees,would not be allowed to deter its outcome...He is quite adamant all the way through - quite forceful all those previous errors HAD to be torn down completely - HAD to be - for as He taught a METAPHYSICAL truth - that in its simplest form means that MIND and SELF BELIEF - LITERALLY create reality !!

I don't think we are in disagreement at all. I think it is simply a matter of you and I each having a different emphasis in this exchange. I am fairly certain that I get where you're coming from -- that your emphasis is on the vital importance of what you believe Jesus was working to accomplish. I don't disagree with you that Jesus may have needed to be forceful in his approach. Or that we may need to be. I simply don't think that a person in complete harmony with the idea that the Father of us all is LOVE, would cultivate an emotion of despising any person, or was encouraging others to cultivate that emotion towards others. That has been my emphasis, and I don't think you are disagreeing with that. So, I think we're good.

(This is really crucial to understand - Our Father,the Primal Divine Spirit - CAUSES reality to be created - tangeable experential worlds - and He said,WE contain that same ability,as we are a spark of that Divine mind....We too,through OUR mind,literally create THIS world,and our Self,moment to moment...This inherant natural ability to call forth creation,is truly KARMA,and He said it is UNSTOPPABLE !! That is crucial to grasp - because if we become fully enmeshed in a belief - especially an after life belief - then upon mortal death,we will naturally "gravitate",become a part of that very thing we believed our self to Be....Many many realms and other spiritual planes exist,and we are trapped within a dense small pocket here,isolated..Access to these other NONE PHYSICAL realms is gained THROUGH the mind..So then - in a very real sense - die here as a mortal,believing this god is all there is,and literally,that is ALL you will be able to attain - your own beliefs,Self creation KArmik stream,will naturally pull you to that pre existant realm,as that is literally where you "feel you belong"....)

KARMA - the MIND calls forth Creation from nowhere and no time - what you believe your Self to Be,will dutifully maniifest as a representation of Self - you are a Self Created Being always...This is an inherant natural quality of the Divine mind - its very nature - and is literally unstoppable - apply the Will(power) and the energy of Creation,dutifully obeys your command,always...

And so - when we know His metaphysical reality and truth as HE presented it - we begin to see WHY He is saying and doing the things He does...This insistance to turn from false spiritual beliefs,is to break that imposed karmik cycle where body dies here Soul becomes free,and because it only and always has known yahweh and that next level of Creation - because that is ALL it understands,that is all it can attain...Literally we die,and after some time coming to terms with the new situation we find our self in,as mind assimilates and begins to understand its new experience,so our energy itself,is attracted to that which is compatable with that self belief - KARMA - without good understanding of self,and without a strong force of Self Will,then literally,our energy will be pulled again,into a new Creation of Self BASED ENTIRELY ON THAT WHICH WE BELIEVE OUR SELF TO BE.....

A mortal at THAT time then,only had two options - upon death,the mind here is faced with a stark reality that it could not avoid at all - either,it saw self AS mortal,clung ot the life just left,longed for it and so,REINCARNATED AGAIN,CAUSED another human life to be created BY its own Karmik beliefs (most do this time and time again)...Or option 2 - the Soul back then, had no other avenue of belief,taught always who and what it was,dictated BY that one who claimed to be its god..>So,the Soul left the body,believed it was destined for "heaven" - and so,it gravitated toward the next higher spiritual realm to join its god and those above,and again,Self belief making this happen,somewhat uncontrolled by an Self ignorant mind..

KARMA - unstoppable He said....When we know this metaphysical truth,we DO see reasons why He is acting and saying the things He does and it all begins to make perfect sense..MIND causes CREATION HE said...Without getting off track with the story of Sofia and all that followed leading to our actual creation here,I will just state that our situation was one where THIS entire realm,universe was created SEPERATELY,and then HIDDEN on purpose from the other realms and their inhabitiants..

At first then,not even this god yahweh or its angels knew ANYTHING about the divine or the realms that have ALWAYS surrounded us...So,they once believed fully that YES,yahweh was "god supreme"....This fact Christ said - that we were HIDDEN and SEPERATE,caused all the problems for mankind...The god here believed itself to be supreme,clung to that authority even when it later learned its truth..It dominated us,would not allow us to share that truth..So Christ came - twofold mission - first primarily - to ENERGETICALLY merge these two forgotten realms - MIND CAUSES CREATION - and so,He,the Christ living Divinity,deposited His full mind DIRECTLY into a mortal body of Yeshua..Thus,an energetic,metaphysical pathway,conduit,bridge,was formed from the first and Primal realm,DIRECTLY to this mortal one,bypassing the realms of yahweh and allowing Soul access inone direction....Then of course,the body of Yeshua was killed - He knew it must happen - and thus the Christ ASCENDED again,back to that Primal realm,and so,the metaphysical,energetic conduit,path and bridge are now complete - Souls here then,once they understand the process,are finally FREE to traverse the entire creation,and finally attain our TRUE Origin and true destination - Our Father,Source of All...

So,His physical life and Divine Presence - the fact He took flesh and blood life then allowed Himself to die on our behalf - THIS is the REAL truth of it,He said - to merge these forgotten realms,His PRIMARY goal...And so His teaching that He gave is also two fold - a public version,where make no mistake,HE DISAVOWS the god the system,the religion completely - wishes and NEEDS to fully break that whole mindset and its KARMIK drive to the lesser god..MIND CAUSES CREATION - our beliefs feed the deception,make it ever stronger,reinforce its creation - thus He just as forcefully,tore it all down and said to us - SEEK AN EMPTY MIND,and essentially,start again this search for Self truth..

Your basic premise here about the "atonement" is very, very similar to another person I know on a different forum: the idea of Jesus being the conduit, energetically. I'll tell you the same thing I told him. Of all the atonement theories out there, that one resonates with me the most. It still sounds "magical" to me, but I don't dismiss it as possible because of that. Lots of scientific things also sound magical to me simply because I don't have the capacity to truly understand them... that doesn't mean they are actually magical. And throughout history, forward thinking humans have put forth ideas that sounded magical to most others at the time, but which proved to be true. So, I'm okay with magical ideas. But, when it comes to the spiritual, I do suspend belief in those ideas without direct experience of them. I hold those ideas loosely, with a "wait and see" attitude.

Second aspect was indeed,to teach directly OF this inner process - the HOW and WHY Creation happens - the energetical reality within that CAUSES the manifested reality without...The metaphysical trutht hat underpims literally everything...He cam to form the conduit,path Home - and to show and teach us how to ACTUALLY find it,employ it as intended..

He KNOWS that ONLY in the empty mind,can we encounter our truth..Right at the start of it All - the Fathers very first stirring mind,came forth from VOID EMPTY SILENCE - and it is to THIS state of mind,He says we must return in order to find that Origin of Self..Thus - put aside the religion,they mislead you He said,seek always this Kingdom within...HATE the parents...we begin to see why He is saying these things...The reason for the direct opposition to the pharisee is simply because they willfully refused Him,denied His truth and were a direct threat to His intent...

NOW you're getting to the meat of what I was asking about in a different thread. The PROCESS. Yay!

I'm pretty good with the putting aside religion aspect. I'm also pretty good with the idea that we create with our minds. Not being convinced of the spiritual, I tend towards a more down-to-earth view of that, but again, I'm completely open to the idea that the application extends to a spiritual realm, if there is one.

Here's what is most important to me regarding a "spiritual realm" and "the Divine". Whatever else the Divine may be, if LOVE is not it's core, then nothing else you can say about it seems particularly important to me. I gather that love is an important aspect of your beliefs about the Divine, so I don't think we're in disagreement there either. In general, I feel like we probably are on the same wavelength in a lot of ways.

So, I think that while it is up to us to create our reality, I also believe that the Divine -- LOVE -- would not have left us to do it on our own. That Love/the Divine would be intentionally influencing us in many ways, BECAUSE it is at the core of who we are. So, the process to me must be about connecting consciously with that core. And I'm guessing that is what you are also saying?

Personally, I feel that I am intellectually connected, but there is a barrier there that I do not fully understand, nor do I know how to bypass. Many people speak of mediation (what you call emptying the mind, perhaps?). But, where some people experience LOVE in that process, I simply experience relaxation. It's pleasant, but that's about all I can say about it. So, either I'm missing something, or there is something missing in me.

As He said,He gave them truth,they rejected it and refused to share that truth with US the common folk - they set THEMSELF against Him,and as I say,His intent and purpose,was just far too important to allow them to stop Him...We are speaking about ETERNAL reality - this realm right here is the "hell" they warn us about,the trap and place of never ending suffering..He was here for ALL HUMANITY to give a truth that lifted us and freed us from that trap,and they directly and PURPOSEFULLY hindered Him - an obstacle that simply had to be dealt with - like we would put down a rabid dog,rather than stay idle and allow it to harm others - so He set about destroying their power rendering them harmless also..

Yes, back full circle to your emphasis. I hope I have made it clear that I appreciate your perspective, and do not disagree with it.

( Nearly forgot - again The earlier point about the jewish tradition,the laws and regulations - I say they are slanted toward domination - and I say that simply because the WHOLE religion,IS the society itself,no possible seperation - every aspect of life,literally,ordered,controlled BY this "god",so inveitably,everything is biassed toward it and it alone..)

I think I get where you're at with this. There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of not murdering, or bearing false witness, or cheating people, etc. However, simply the fact that they were given as LAWS that must be obeyed OR ELSE, is controlling and therefore self-serving. Also, what we focus on matters. Focusing on who we are at our core (love), and how that will manifest itself in our actions towards self and others is vital. So, to shift the focus to the "thou shalt not's" was subtly but thoroughly undermining of the best interests of people.

Pleroo,

I want to present an alternative way for understanding much of your discourse with IamSoul49. In making a point, he refers to the passage from Luke 14:25-27......the passage about 'hating' your mother, father, etc. A similar version occurs in Matthew 11:34-37......with the additional inclusion of saying "And a man's enemy will be the members of his own household". In reference to the reading from Luke, I prefer George Lamsa's version of the Bible which is translated from the Aramaic. Rather than translating it as 'hating your mother, etc', he translates it as 'put aside'.

This is a significant difference. It is hard for us to imagine Christ as advocating 'hate'. What it means to me is that Christ is emphasizing that this must be an INDIVIDUAL AND PERSONAL journey of discovery. One must come with a completely open slate....totally open-minded.....not convinced or dictated to by anyone. Use some logic here. These verses must apply to everyone....it must be universal truth. Using logic this means that if your father, mother, etc. are the greatest living gnostics you must also put aside whatever they might dictate to you. They might be right.....but that does not matter. You must find, discover and know the truth for yourself. The only 'truth' that we really accept is the truth that we have personally discovered......that has been personally revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. We cannot inherit or claim another's truth......that was their journey meant solely and individually for them. When you have discovered your truth it might concur with others......it might not. But it will be your truth.

Think a little bit about "A man's enemy will be the members of his own household". Extend your understanding of 'household'. We can start with immediate family---extended family---tribe----country----language---culture---chosen religion----denomination----peer group, etc. etc. Each one of these divisions is limiting, prejudicial, discriminatory in some shape or fashion. They each represent a potential hindrance to being open-minded. And I haven't even mentioned the ego at all........it is the greatest prison of all......but that is for another discussion.

I looked up the lyrics for _Lonesome Valley_ by Woody Guthrie......even better than I remembered.....:)

You gotta walk that lonesome valley
You gotta walk it by yourself
Nobody here can walk it for you,
You gotta walk it by yourself.

v.4
There's a road that leads to glory
Through a valley far away,
Nobody else can walk it for you,
They can only point the way.

v.5
Mamma and daddy loves you dearly,
Sister does and brother, too,
They may beg you to go with them,
But they cannot go for you.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

Well, I am getting older, but I think my memory is okay. The question I asked was regarding the last portion of the passage IamSoul quoted, which is not found in either Mark or Matthew. But, IamSoul already explained that it was found in the book of Thomas. Thanks anyway, though.

Not a problem. You're wrong. I gave you the correct reference.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Not a problem. You're wrong. I gave you the correct reference.

Well, I've had plenty of practice being wrong, but in this case I think maybe there's been a misunderstanding. Perhaps it's not important to explain, but I want to clear it up.

Here is what IamSoul posted:



quote: They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."
He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give god what belongs to god, and give me what is mine."


The portion of the passage which I bolded -- "and give me what is mine" -- is not recorded in either Matthew or Mark. IamSoul explained to me that that portion was recorded in the book of Thomas. See?


Have a lovely Sunday, Morpheus. And a happy Valentine's Day.