Wicca and Christianity

[Jenny Crow]

I noticed in the topic of "Banishing people from your life" that Almondeyez related that she would have been invoking the Christian god among other energies if she had become Wiccan.

I know this topic has been discussed before but I'm always astonished and alarmed that there are people who believe that a specifically pagan religion can be syncretized with a Christian religion.
Wicca is a specific pagan religion and those who follow it honour the deities of their particular tradition. The Christian god is not one of those deities. Among other things, Christianity has strict rules about what god one is allowed to worship. The Christian god demands that "thou shalt have no other gods before me". I think it couldn't be any clearer than that.

By definition Christianity is a monotheistic religion while Wicca is polytheistic, which makes the two religions very different and quite distinct from, and incompatible with, each other. To become Wiccan a Christian would have to abandon many of the teachings of Christianity and the teachings of the Christian Bible. So by their very definitions one could hardly be a Christian Wiccan any more than one could be a Jewish Mormon.

Besides its many gods, Wicca also incorporates magic as an important component and Christianity specifically prohibits the use of magic and Witchcraft. There are Christians who perform magic within a Christian framework but this not Wicca. Strictly speaking, these practitioners are magicians.

In the old days, before one was accepted into certain covens one had to abjure the Christian god. I'm not sure, though, if that is still the case, but it definitely was at one time.

One of the first rules of Ceremonial Magic, of which, as we all know, certain rites and rituals were incorporated into Witchcraft and Wicca, is that you never mix pantheons when working the rites. It really does matter very much if one is also invoking Christian energies along with pagan energies/deities. Energies might be energy with different signatures, as Sea-dove, says, but those signatures will vibrate at different frequencies and not always will they blend together to make one big happy family.

As an aside, I was invited to a meeting where healing was going to be done. There were people from all walks of spirituality and traditions - some Christians, some Native people etc. etc. To close the meeting the leader of the group did a small ritual of thanks and invoked deities from many traditions including pagan, Hindu, Native American and so on. I was quite uncomfortable with this but didn't say anything. The next day I received a phone call from the very distraught hostess of the meeting - in the room where the meeting and ceremony had been held pictures had been thrown from the walls, vases smashed, cushions thrown from the couches and chairs thrown onto the floor, etc. Her arms were also covered in bruises. Apparently, I was being blamed because I was the only Wiccan that had attended so she and her cronies believed that it was my pagan gods who had done this. Whether you believe this or not, it is not that uncommon - just another example of invoking deities that do not get along.

Badger posted in "Banishing people from your life" - that Wicca does not feature a rule that says you can't believe in god and, he says, practitioners of Witchcraft considered the Christian god to be one of their gods under just one of his many names. Of course, one can call oneself Wiccan if one so wishes but if you believe in the Christian god then you're Christian, not Wiccan, at least in my opinion and many others' opinions as well.

I would like to ask Badger where and/or from whom, did he get the information that the Christian god was ever worshipped in Wicca or Witchcraft. I have been involved in Wicca/Witchcraft for over thirty five years and have never read or been told by my elders that this is so. Yes, Christians can perform magic (or spells if you wish) but they're still Christian, not Wiccan.

With love, respect and blessings,
Jenny Crow

Would the Christian god, Jehova, be banned from his other two religions, Judaism and Islam?

Christianity says that you can only have one god. Well, it doesn't really because it says we have to 'love thy neighbour' regardless.

Wicca imposes no such restrictions. In fact the only rule in modern wicca is that whatever path we choose, it must be one of peace towards others.

I'd hate to think there was some kind of seed of extremism forming in wiccan circles

[Jenny Crow]

If they're "his" religions why would he be banned from them. Loving thy neighbour is a tenet of the Christian religion, it is not about which god you worship.

No - Wicca doesn't impose restrictions, but then when you've gone so far you've crossed the boundary of it being Wicca and it is Wicca no more.

Originally Posted by Jenny Crow

If they're "his" religions why would he be banned from them.

My point was to highlight that as Jehova is not exclusively a Christian god, but in facts pre-dates Christianity by a substantial margin, there is no reason to assume that a Wiccan can't acknowledge that particular god on the basis that he is a Christian god and not a Wiccan god.

I personally don't believe in any god in the widely accepted sense of the word, but I see no reason why those that do believe in gods should be bound by a particular religion.

In fact, in many shamanic cultures, the local shaman/priest/whatever title you want to give him/her, will often assist with the rituals of other faiths, simply because they acknowledge the beliefs of others.

But back to wicca, which is based on the ancient practice of witchcraft. It was not really a religion in the sense that it had a specific set of rules and ideas and was limited to those rules and ideas. Instead, it was more about shared ideas. After all, as it is such an ancient religion, it will have started while people were still moving around a lot, finding their place so to speak. We know that ancient Britons, Celts, Saxons, Normans, Norse etc were all trading internationally. Its inevitable that ideas will have been exchanged too. In fact the pentagram features a lot in Judaism I believe, yet it has come to be associated with witchcraft and modern wicca. If judaism had an influence on witchcraft, then why not the Jewish god, who is also the Christian god, Jehova?

No - Wicca doesn't impose restrictions, but then when you've gone so far you've crossed the boundary of it being Wicca and it is Wicca no more.

But what is wicca anyway? It seems to me that it started in the 1960s as an attempt to revive the ancient art of witchcraft, but quickly become a commercial enterprise more than anything else, with shops selling all sorts of trinkets and authors writing all sorts of tales, each putting in their own ideas, ideas whose dominance depends entirely on the popularity of the writer. From what I've been able to decipher, picking the wheat from the chaff so to speak, the only rule I can see is that we should do what we like as long is it harms nobody else. With boundaries as free ranging as that, it seems difficult to cross the boundary into something else without actually someone else.

[Jenny Crow]

Originally Posted by Badger1777

My point was to highlight that as Jehova is not exclusively a Christian god, but in facts pre-dates Christianity by a substantial margin, there is no reason to assume that a Wiccan can't acknowledge that particular god on the basis that he is a Christian god and not a Wiccan god.QUOTE
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Are you talking about the Hebrew god YHWH? The name of Jehova didn't surface until the 13th or 14th century?!?
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QUOTE. But back to wicca, which is based on the ancient practice of witchcraft. It was not really a religion in the sense that it had a specific set of rules and ideas and was limited to those rules and ideas. Instead, it was more about shared ideas. After all, as it is such an ancient religion, it will have started while people were still moving around a lot, finding their place so to speak. We know that ancient Britons, Celts, Saxons, Normans, Norse etc were all trading internationally. Its inevitable that ideas will have been exchanged too. In fact the pentagram features a lot in Judaism I believe, yet it has come to be associated with witchcraft and modern wicca. If judaism had an influence on witchcraft, then why not the Jewish god, who is also the Christian god, Jehova?QUOTE
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Yes, ideas were exchanged as cultures and tribes spread out, I'm sure. Witchcraft is ancient as is Shamanism, in fact some traditions of Witchcraft still incorporate many Shamanistic techniques and rites, especially in Europe. During the Crusades, Saracen and Moorish ideas and rites were also incorporated into Witchcraft. And in England, French rites, tenets and ideas were mixed in. I'm not properly aware of how much or how little Judaism influenced Witchcraft

The Christian god demands that ....."thou shalt put no other gods before me"....why would a pagan Wiccan want to honour/worship the Christian god?------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE But what is wicca anyway? It seems to me that it started in the 1960s as an attempt to revive the ancient art of witchcraft, but quickly become a commercial enterprise more than anything else, with shops selling all sorts of trinkets and authors writing all sorts of tales, each putting in their own ideas, ideas whose dominance depends entirely on the popularity of the writer. From what I've been able to decipher, picking the wheat from the chaff so to speak, the only rule I can see is that we should do what we like as long is it harms nobody else. With boundaries as free ranging as that, it seems difficult to cross the boundary into something else without actually someone else.

IF you're talking about Gardnerian Wicca it is a religion and - yes it was an attempt to revive the old Craft and Gardner was the one chosen by the fates, so to speak, to set it all in motion. After the Witchcraft Laws were repealed in 1951, the leader of his coven gave Gardner permission to write about the Craft but practitioners who are in the Hereditary trads are sworn to secrecy and many of the old covens had died out and Gardner had difficulty putting together a coherent set of rites and rituals although as a base he used the rites of the coven he was initiated into - the New Forest coven. Gardner also contacted a Hereditary coven in Hertfordshire, which was a remnant of one of the nine covens run by the magister, Old George Pickingill who was an amazing magician and Witch and, I believe, also a Cunning Man. Pickingill's covens used much French content in their rites and rituals. Gardner, and also Crowley with whom Gardner worked on the rites, seemed to favour the Pickingill way of doing things and much of it eventually showed up, in the Gardnerian Book of Shadows; however, some of the mainstream material was never included. In Gardnerian Wicca there are over one hundred and fifty laws - I know I copied them out when I was being trained, lol. But because people don't know this they say there are no laws of the Wicca. It was Crowley who included in one of his writings, - Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law. Love under will.

Anyway, as you say, in the 60's and 70's authors and experts came out of the woodwork and wrote many nonsensical books about their version of what Wicca is and eventually it became so watered-down that it was hardly recognizable; and for some reason the "An harm none" thing became grossly overblown out of all proportion. One of the reasons it became so popular was it helped those who had previously been Christian and used to a lot of "Thou shalt nots" ease into a pagan religion.

Back when I was being taught we were exhorted to take responsibility for our actions and that there is always a reaction to every action. Interfering with peoples' free will was not frowned upon so much, for example protecting yourself and stopping someone from harming yourself or a loved one.

There are two books I'd highly recommend if you're at all interested in Wicca and Witchcraft and how Wicca came into being...1) Modern Wicca by Mike Howard and 2) The Pickingill Papers - The Origin of the Gardnerian Craft" by W.E. Liddell and Michael Howard.

[norseman]

Badger, if you read the posts in this section you will see that many of the postings concern Witchcraft, not wicca [Witchcraft-lite]. So, there is an tendency not to include christianity here as the two are not compatible. BUt, hey, we are a broad church although I say that Christian Wicca is an absolute nonsense. I have a single "deity" and that is Mother Earth and Lovelock is Her prophet.

Oh, btw Witchcraft has remained strong in Britain and is the ONLY native belief in Britain - all others are "foreign imports".

Originally Posted by norseman

Oh, btw Witchcraft has remained strong in Britain and is the ONLY native belief in Britain - all others are "foreign imports".

That would depend on what you meant by native. Even the Picts, Scots and Britons were foreign invaders if you go far enough back.

[Awakened Queen]

Originally Posted by Jenny Crow

Yes, Christians can perform magic (or spells if you wish) but they're still Christian, not Wiccan.

Yes, exactly. I'm not Wiccan. I am of Christian faith, infused with a spiritual Eastern outlook, and I do perform spells. I was under the impression that Wiccans believe in gods and goddesses, not a Christian god. Is this correct?

Originally Posted by norseman

Badger, if you read the posts in this section you will see that many of the postings concern Witchcraft, not wicca [Witchcraft-lite]. So, there is an tendency not to include christianity here as the two are not compatible. BUt, hey, we are a broad church although I say that Christian Wicca is an absolute nonsense. I have a single "deity" and that is Mother Earth and Lovelock is Her prophet.

Much of the superstitions that still thrive today have their roots in old pagan beliefs, yet have a christian slant on them now. I would say that wicthcraft and church are mutually exclusive, as the church corrupted the teachings of Christianity and turned it into something horrible, but Christianity and witchcraft are certainly not mutually exclusive.

Oh, btw Witchcraft has remained strong in Britain and is the ONLY native belief in Britain - all others are "foreign imports".

EVERYTHING here in Britain is a foreign import. There were no humans here until after the ice receeded about 10,000 years ago. The Celts are widely credited as being the original Brits, even though they came from Eastern Europe close to the border with Asia. Many decided that the Saxons, ie the Germans were the original Brits. The name Briton as in person from Britain, comes from the Roman's goddess Britannia. So with EVERYTHING being a foreign import, we can't possibly set any rules for the 'original' belief system that would exclude the influences of the many cultures and tribes that contributed to our rich and diverse history.

[Jenny Crow]

Originally Posted by Awakened Queen

Yes, exactly. I'm not Wiccan. I am of Christian faith, infused with a spiritual Eastern outlook, and I do perform spells. I was under the impression that Wiccans believe in gods and goddesses, not a Christian god. Is this correct?

Yes, Awakened Queen, that is correct.