On Karma

[Ascophore]

I don't believe in Karma.

It just seems to have too many holes to me, the principles that is.
Think of a timestream for instance there are so many potentials and opportunities that happen and sometimes someone just -has- to play a bad guy in order to continue the 'story' at hand. What if, in order to create a world that would have higher or better understanding of existence you had to incarnate as the new Hitler? Say the combined effort of the world to put you down led to the world becoming a better place.

Does that mean you're going to be punished for playing a role that was needed?

[Lumin]

I believe in karma.

Cause one is responsible for their own energy. The energy that one sends out, you're offering it to the universe. And universe will attract and match that energy, and send it back.

"The world is like a mountain. Your echo depends on you. If you scream good things, the world will give it back. If you scream bad things, the world will give it back. Even if someone says badly about you, say good about him. Change your heart to change the world."- Shams Tabrizi

[Ascophore]

Originally Posted by Luminarium

I believe in karma.

Cause one is responsible for their own energy. The energy that one sends out, you're offering it to the universe. And universe will attract and match that energy, and send it back.

"The world is like a mountain. Your echo depends on you. If you scream good things, the world will give it back. If you scream bad things, the world will give it back. Even if someone says badly about you, say good about him. Change your heart to change the world."- Shams Tabrizi

So I don't think that's a very fair explanation. Some people who are cruel were not born that way but became such as a reflection of the environment around them. The above does not allow for such individuals to exist by simplifying it as "whatever YOU put out is what YOU get back". There's no way to truly control what OTHERS put out and as such it has a negative effect on you which causes you to put out something negative.

It's just a never ending cycle according to that analogy.

Think of a snake. Does a snake feel evil when it consumes prey? Does a snake feel good when it coils round her eggs?

[Lumin]

Originally Posted by Ascophore

So I don't think that's a very fair explanation. Some people who are cruel were not born that way but became such as a reflection of the environment around them. The above does not allow for such individuals to exist by simplifying it as "whatever YOU put out is what YOU get back". There's no way to truly control what OTHERS put out and as such it has a negative effect on you which causes you to put out something negative.

It's just a never ending cycle according to that analogy.

Think of a snake. Does a snake feel evil when it consumes prey? Does a snake feel good when it coils round her eggs?

It's only as fair as what one choose's to see it.

As we all meet other's at our own perspective of understanding, which has developed on what one has chosen to learn from in one's experiences that have allowed them to grow into who they are, and what one see's will vary slightly to greatly, depending on the individual.

The quote I used was as an example, that one individually is responsible for the energy that they send out. And sometimes in experiences, other's do not send back energy that matches that energy. How they choose to react, is a reflection which has more to do with what's going on inside them. Tho what's not fair is to say that there is no choice on how those circumstances can change, and they start inside the individual.

[Ascophore]

Originally Posted by Luminarium

It's only as fair as what one choose's to see it.

As we all meet other's at our own perspective of understanding, which has developed on what one has chosen to learn from in one's experiences that have allowed them to grow into who they are, and what one see's will vary slightly to greatly, depending on the individual.

The quote I used was as an example, that one individually is responsible for the energy that they send out. And sometimes in experiences, other's do not send back energy that matches that energy. How they choose to react, is a reflection which has more to do with what's going on inside them. Tho what's not fair is to say that there is no choice on how those circumstances can change, and they start inside the individual.

And I'll say it again, the rigidity of the above complex does not truly envelop how a mortal human mind develops. What if, just one day someone told you that all your life you've been colorblind and you have actually been swapping blues for greens? It would seem strange and foreign.

There are some folk who exist that such concepts of truthfulness and goodness are strange and foreign as described above as it's what they've lived with their entire lives. There is no magic "oh, but now I'm going to be X now."

[urbanzennist]

Originally Posted by Ascophore

The above does not allow for such individuals to exist by simplifying it as "whatever YOU put out is what YOU get back". There's no way to truly control what OTHERS put out and as such it has a negative effect on you which causes you to put out something negative.

At least from the Buddhist perspective, Karma isn't that everything we experience is because of our actions... rather, it is that actions that put negativity into the world result in a return of negativity to ourselves. If I said "you did badly on that test because you didn't study." that doesn't mean that EVERY test you do badly on is because you didn't study. However, it DOES mean that not studying results in bad results. Likewise, with karma, not everything you experience is the result of bad karma, but actions that put negativity into the world (or into your mind) result in negative "fruits".

Originally Posted by Ascophore

Think of a snake. Does a snake feel evil when it consumes prey? Does a snake feel good when it coils round her eggs?

I have no idea what a snake thinks... but think of humans. When we harm others, regardless of how cold and calloused we think we are, at least the vast majority of us feel aggrieved by the harm we've caused others, even if we don't see them again. Likewise, when we nurture and care for our children, or younger family members, we DO in fact, enter a more positive mental state. Our thoughts, speech and actions affect our mind state and play a role in determining our future actions... controlling these things can influence the course of events, often in spite of random effects.

[Ascophore]

Originally Posted by urbanzennist

At least from the Buddhist perspective, Karma isn't that everything we experience is because of our actions... rather, it is that actions that put negativity into the world result in a return of negativity to ourselves. If I said "you did badly on that test because you didn't study." that doesn't mean that EVERY test you do badly on is because you didn't study. However, it DOES mean that not studying results in bad results. Likewise, with karma, not everything you experience is the result of bad karma, but actions that put negativity into the world (or into your mind) result in negative "fruits".

My central point still stands, however. Sure you may be able to control aspects of your life but for the factors that determined who you are those are mostly out of your control. It's like having a kid hold up a sign that says "God Hates F***". Do you think the kid understands his actions? Of course not, but there's a good chance that he'll grow up with such attitude -just because- he was raised that way. When you take this into account Karma is just further punishing someone for something out of their control and thusly should not exist.

Originally Posted by urbanzennist

I have no idea what a snake thinks... but think of humans. When we harm others, regardless of how cold and calloused we think we are, at least the vast majority of us feel aggrieved by the harm we've caused others, even if we don't see them again. Likewise, when we nurture and care for our children, or younger family members, we DO in fact, enter a more positive mental state. Our thoughts, speech and actions affect our mind state and play a role in determining our future actions... controlling these things can influence the course of events, often in spite of random effects.

No offense, but if you feel 'sorry' for harming someone who is trying to seriously harm you then something's 'off'. If a mosquito sucks your blood do you sit there and let it drain or do you swat it out of impulse? What is essentially being said now (from what I'm reading) is that a serial killer can effectively be considered "in good karma" if they kill "only the bad ones" and take care of their family and protect it.

[Melahin]

Originally Posted by WaterandFire

I'm just scared for how much more suffering awaits me.

Only as much as you decide to put on yourself. Past life recognition has little to do with karma (unless you believe otherwise), and everything to do with how you feel right now based on how you value your life, which often is based on your entire life, and stuff that has been programed into you in early childhood through parenting and stuff. Sometimes it is just easier to access these feelings and release them through images of past lives, than going to something that is closer to home base, like a trauma that happened in your childhood.

When a life has been lived you release it, so karma does not follow you from life to life (unless you in your current life picks up a belief that is contrary to that).

[SaturninePluto]

No offense, but if you feel 'sorry' for harming someone who is trying to seriously harm you then something's 'off'. If a mosquito sucks your blood do you sit there and let it drain or do you swat it out of impulse? What is essentially being said now (from what I'm reading) is that a serial killer can effectively be considered "in good karma" if they kill "only the bad ones" and take care of their family and protect it.

Didn't expect to waltz into this thread as my own thoughts and feelings on karma are not fully formed yet.. but I have.

Here's why.
I feel incredibly REMORSEFUL for harming another, even when they are harming me.
The reason why I would or why I would imagine anyone would is quite simple. Yes I am not responsible for another's feelings, thoughts, and actions, however, I take full responsibility for my own. Understand?

This impossible idea of feeling remorseful when I cause harm to one who tries to or is harming me comes not from speculating, but from an individual whom has been harmed physically and verbally throughout my entire lifespan.

There was an individual whom I had met through some means, who was indeed much of a stranger whom had tried to force me semi violently into his vehicle. For whatever reason, I do not know. I am certain this man had reasons and who said they were of any good? I had to literally grab him by the back of his head by his hair and tell him to let me go, that I was not going to take his toxic filth, and literally had to stand there fighting verbally while trying to keep him at a comfortable distance. Seems pretty impossible as he was indeed invading my physical space.

You know what I felt? Horrible! I felt horrible for harming this person.

The reason is obvious. This was an individual who was so stressed out, and out of control there is no possible way I could feel hatred for them. I felt empathy for them. Why? Someone with such lack of self control needs real help. Chances are he may never get it. Any help. Any compassion. Because of the way this person conducts themselves.

This is what our world turns people into. This is what parents teach their children. This is actually yes how many are raised.
Everyone has a purpose. Everyone. Good or bad, healthy or sick, intelligent or low IQ. EVERYONE.

You know why when I harm someone I feel remorse? Because the vast majority of people who harm others do. I think that was the point Zennist was trying to get across. Those that do not feel remorse have an illness. It is called anti-social personality disorder. No. It has nothing to do with being anti-social. I ask if you haven't to consider reading about it?

I just wanted to address that. And in line with karma. You are forgetting human beings have choices. Do we let experiences out of our control fate us to being a harmful person, or do we overcome this and take our own life in our hands, forge our own fate, and take responsibility for our own feelings and actions?

Do we let our karma have the final say or do we strive to overcome it?

And comparing a mosquito biting an individual to the actions of a serial killer is highly illogical to me. They are not quite the same things. At all.

And on the topic of individuals who have suffered so much mentally and emotionally to feel that they need to kill, all I have for them is empathy. Empathy not sympathy.

Because one morning I woke up and realized the true intentions and happenings in this world we are living in, and came to realize the true and vast sadness of it all.

And the absolute waste.

[essvass]

Originally Posted by WaterandFire

Hello all, this is my first post!

I just had a realization. I have been plagued with a nagging sense of guilt that I think stems from past lives in which I killed people and deserted people. But I realized that karmically I will have to pay for it, so there's no need to feel guilty at all. I will pay my dues and am paying my dues. I'm just scared for how much more suffering awaits me.

I hope I posted this in the right forum. What do you all think?

How do you know you killed and/or deserted people? I think other members asked you the same question, but I couldn't find your answer.

I've heard that people whose birth was difficult, and the delivery was very long and painful, are born with an innate feeling of impersonal guilt.

There may be other explanations for you feeling of guilt. Guilt is considered neither healthy nor helpful. Just like other members said, just the guilt that you feel can potentially make your life more difficult.

Living this life the best you can and in the most meaningful way I think would be the best thing you could do for yourself, your karma, and everyone else, starting right now.

Blessings and good luck.