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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #41  
Old 14-04-2019, 06:49 PM
janielee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
I certainly don't start with or have any of those assertions.

Right effort is effort that does not assert a person. Seeking a goal through a practice asserts a person and is therefore wrong effort. However, a practice that ends seeking and a seeker is right effort.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
What I and Buddha said



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
But ego asserts, oh without me that is dark and bleak and nothing. Yes of course it does. It is designed to keep one focusing on it, listening to it, to remain forever in this judgmental conflict way of being. It is designed so we keep seeing though it's eyes, though it's interpretation.

I see that. It's very, very clear

Good luck to you, Rain95.

JL
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  #42  
Old 14-04-2019, 06:49 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
' If someone wants to cease deliberate effort '

You don't cease deliberate effort, it's a happening not a doing

Depends on what you are imaging is deliberate effort and imagining yourself to be. Both are only ideas and one can choose to be here now without ideas, so one can cease to make deliberate effort a real thing.
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  #43  
Old 14-04-2019, 06:54 PM
janielee
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
Depends on what you are imaging is deliberate effort and imagining yourself to be. Both are only ideas and one can choose to be here now without ideas, so one can cease to make deliberate effort a real thing.

Without ideas, without thought, without conception. Lobotomy time! Hallelujah..

JL
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  #44  
Old 14-04-2019, 06:59 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
When you say there is no person, no effort needed etc. and one starts with that assertion, that is the road of nihilism.

Yea I don't have those assertions. That there IS no person. No person where? lol Now there can be no person, no assertion of opinion or beliefs, that is taught by Buddha and Buddhism. One does not have to assert or project a person. I do assert that is a potential we all have. But I would never assert what you are asserting.... that there is no person.... I'm not even sure what that means.
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  #45  
Old 14-04-2019, 07:14 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Good luck to you, Rain95.

This is just projecting your attachment/addiction to the delusion of becoming onto others. Why would one want or need luck? Now and I, are prefect and whole as we are. No idea is present to say otherwise. Trying or wanting now or me to be anything other than what it is, means I am not practicing Buddhism. I am paying attention to the wrong things. What now is, is infinite potential as I said.
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  #46  
Old 14-04-2019, 07:28 PM
janielee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
Now there can be no person, no assertion of opinion or beliefs, that is taught by Buddha and Buddhism.

No, it's not.

JL
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  #47  
Old 14-04-2019, 07:33 PM
janielee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
This is just projecting your attachment/addiction to the delusion of becoming onto others. Why would one want or need luck? Now and I, are prefect and whole as we are. No idea is present to say otherwise. Trying or wanting now or me to be anything other than what it is, means I am not practicing Buddhism. I am paying attention to the wrong things. What now is, is infinite potential as I said.

Defined in terms of what it is...

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."

— AN 3.32

There's no fire like passion,
no loss like anger,
no pain like the aggregates,
no ease other than peace.

Hunger: the foremost illness.
Fabrications: the foremost pain.
For one knowing this truth
as it actually is,
Unbinding
is the foremost ease.

Freedom from illness: the foremost good fortune.
Contentment: the foremost wealth.
Trust: the foremost kinship.
Unbinding: the foremost ease.
— Dhp 202-205

The enlightened, constantly
absorbed in jhana,
persevering,
firm in their effort:
they touch Unbinding,
the unexcelled safety
from bondage.
— Dhp 23

...and in terms of what it is not

"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 8.1

"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

— Ud 8.3

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
— Ud 1.10


One's first breakthrough to Nibbana puts an end to so much suffering

Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."

— SN 13.1

[Aggivessana Vacchagotta:] "But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?"

[The Buddha:] "'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."

"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"...both does & does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."

"...neither does nor does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."

"How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears... does not reappear... both does & does not reappear... neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in each case. At this point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of clarity coming to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured."

"Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some questions to you. Answer as you see fit. What do you think, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?"

"...yes..."

"And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'"

"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?"

"...yes..."

"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."

"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.

"Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...

"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea."

— MN 72
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  #48  
Old 14-04-2019, 07:35 PM
sky sky is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2015
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  sky's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
Depends on what you are imaging is deliberate effort and imagining yourself to be. Both are only ideas and one can choose to be here now without ideas, so one can cease to make deliberate effort a real thing.




' Depends on what you are imaging is deliberate effort and imagining yourself to be.'

Stop imagining Rain
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  #49  
Old 14-04-2019, 07:42 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Without ideas, without thought, without conception. Lobotomy time! Hallelujah..

You are not your ideas, you are not your thoughts, you are not your concepts.

This idea your brain presents to you, that all ceases without these things is non-sense. Don't accept it, don't believe it. Nothing ceases except the attachment to the filter that prevents us from experiencing the actual directly as it is.

The brain does it's thing, ideas flow through the mind, thoughts come and go, knowledge is explored, contemplation occurs, what is does not change. What changes is my relationships with all of these things, and these changes in relationships changes how and what I experience.

When one's now is not about ideas, beliefs, thoughts, opinions, other things can be experienced, we become aware of other things we were not aware of before. We pay attention to other things, things that were previously obscured by keeping one's attention on the thoughts and the experience of now that creates.
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  #50  
Old 14-04-2019, 07:48 PM
janielee
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
The brain does it's thing, ideas flow through the mind, thoughts come and go, knowledge is explored, contemplation occurs, what is does not change. What changes is my relationships with all of these things, and these changes in relationships changes how and what I experience.

Buddhism is not a religion of the pscyhe; you're just talking psychology - in mind games and conjurations. Without real insight "seeing", there is no real Buddhism, whatever way you spin it, or however smart your verbal/mental repetition of ideas is, Rain95.

JL
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