Levels/Layers of Progression

[7luminaries]

Running, hello there and agreed it is ever-arising at a certain point, and also that these are all aspects of the authentic love that we are.
Focus on bliss doesn't resonate with all. Many resonate more deeply with sublime joy (which is radiant), clarity, and equanimity. And that's actually preferable, IMO, even though yes of course it's all good.

In fact, unfortunately, the focus on bliss has misdirected many who use spirituality like a drug to avoid deeply grounding. They are not yet up to the task of realising that who they are in spirit/at centre is who they are, full stop. It is only we who artificially make divisions between "waking realm" and "spirit" (or, how we act versus who we truly are at centre), in order to avoid coming to terms with living from a place of integration and centre...in the face of the often low, degraded, and/or violent ways we often choose to behave day-to-day. This misdirection is the reason I mention this, cautiously.

Buddha himself had to push himself and be coaxed to engage. It's a common obstacle on the path, to remain turned inward and self-referential. Jesus however did not need to be pushed to engage and to serve. He was at a different place and just required his alone time for prayer and balance. In the eyes of many, including some Buddhists, there are powerful lessons to be learnt from all but Jesus is seen as being further on the path.

What is the lesson of the master? Illumination is not the fullness of the authentic love we are. Both illumination and engagement (manifestation in service) are critical for more fully realising the authentic love that we are. Engagement and service point directly to what authentic love in community is...it is actively supporting AND seeking the highest good of the other (according to them), equally to seeking your own highest good (according to you). There is only one way for any of us to more truly and deeply know what is authentically loving and supportive of one another, and that is to meaningfully engage with presence and commitment, and to serve. Each in our different ways, according to those we know and touch in the course of our day-to-day lives.

Peace & blessings
7L

[running]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Running, hello there and agreed it is ever-arising at a certain point, and also that these are all aspects of the authentic love that we are.
Focus on bliss doesn't resonate with all. Many resonate more deeply with sublime joy (which is radiant), clarity, and equanimity. And that's actually preferable, IMO, even though yes of course it's all good.

In fact, unfortunately, the focus on bliss has misdirected many who use spirituality like a drug to avoid deeply grounding. They are not yet up to the task of realising that who they are in spirit/at centre is who they are, full stop. It is only we who artificially make divisions between "waking realm" and "spirit" (or, how we act versus who we truly are at centre), in order to avoid coming to terms with living from a place of integration and centre...in the face of the often low, degraded, and/or violent ways we often choose to behave day-to-day. This misdirection is the reason I mention this, cautiously.

Buddha himself had to push himself and be coaxed to engage. It's a common obstacle on the path, to remain turned inward and self-referential. Jesus however did not need to be pushed to engage and to serve. He was at a different place and just required his alone time for prayer and balance. In the eyes of many, including some Buddhists, there are powerful lessons to be learnt from all but Jesus is seen as being further on the path.

What is the lesson of the master? Illumination is not the fullness of the authentic love we are. Both illumination and engagement (manifestation in service) are critical for more fully realising the authentic love that we are. Engagement and service point directly to what authentic love in community is...it is actively supporting AND seeking the highest good of the other (according to them), equally to seeking your own highest good (according to you). There is only one way for any of us to more truly and deeply know what is authentically loving and supportive of one another, and that is to meaningfully engage with presence and commitment, and to serve. Each in our different ways, according to those we know and touch in the course of our day-to-day lives.

Peace & blessings
7L

ok. i see this is going no where. bliss is love. bliss is radiant joy. as long as you go on about how these are different things. there is no point of continuing this conversation.

your whole statement is based on a fictional belief. they are all the same thing. different words describing the very same thing.

bliss, joy, l radiating love through effort is not it yet. bliss, joy, radiant love effortlessly without coming and going is it. which is whom we all already are.

if its important for somebody to be doing lots of things to experience bliss/love/joy then i think thats great. thats just not what it is. that is effort not grace. that is comimg and going of bliss/joy/love not being it.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Buddha himself had to push himself and be coaxed to engage. It's a common obstacle on the path, to remain turned inward and self-referential. Jesus however did not need to be pushed to engage and to serve. He was at a different place and just required his alone time for prayer and balance. In the eyes of many, including some Buddhists, there are powerful lessons to be learnt from all but Jesus is seen as being further on the path.

The Buddha felt that others wouldn't understand his teachings. It wasn't that he needed to pray (to whom) or needed time to balance (local mind).

I would also disagree that one is farther than the other. What is beyond a Buddha? I would say that Jesus was a Buddha as well.. Not that one Buddha is better than another.

[Alfor]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

In fact, unfortunately, the focus on bliss has misdirected many who use spirituality like a drug to avoid deeply grounding. They are not yet up to the task of realising that who they are in spirit/at centre is who they are, full stop. It is only we who artificially make divisions between "waking realm" and "spirit" (or, how we act versus who we truly are at centre), in order to avoid coming to terms with living from a place of integration and centre...in the face of the often low, degraded, and/or violent ways we often choose to behave day-to-day. This misdirection is the reason I mention this, cautiously.

If "we who artificially make divisions between "waking realm" and "spirit" (or, how we act versus who we truly are at centre)" do not make that division, then there is no need to act to correct anything.

Not making that division is life "living from a place of integration and centre" full stop. There being no misdirection, misperception, nor anything else to correct. It is obvious that "low, degraded, and/or violent ways" cannot be truly corrected by anyone else, but only by the one making that division. And anything other than true correction - ie not making the division, the distinction, in the first place - would only be a 'patch up' not a true correction.

The very act of perceiving such division is the very act of avoiding one's true condition. There is no "we", there is only oneself.

Best wishes,

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by running

ok. i see this is going no where. bliss is love. bliss is radiant joy. as long as you go on about how these are different things. there is no point of continuing this conversation.

your whole statement is based on a fictional belief. they are all the same thing. different words describing the very same thing.

bliss, joy, l radiating love through effort is not it yet. bliss, joy, radiant love effortlessly without coming and going is it. which is whom we all already are.

if its important for somebody to be doing lots of things to experience bliss/love/joy then i think thats great. thats just not what it is. that is effort not grace. that is comimg and going of bliss/joy/love not being it.

Running, hello there! I certainly hope everyone can be respectful and courteous. Otherwise it's just no fun

In the spirit of graciousness and courtesy, I'm going to put aside everything you've said up till the last paragraph, where you're no longer being accusatory but just stating your differing perspective. Let's take it from there, shall we?

It's not "effort" versus "grace". That's a common misperception, i.e., that our reality is either/or. In so many instances, it's a both/and situation.

That is, manifestation is the natural outpouring of both grace and illumination. It is not separate from the authentic love that we are, but rather an intrinsic aspect of it, so long as we free ourselves to fully engage and ground more deeply in the authentic love that we are.

And a very good night to you, with all due respect and courtesy
Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The Buddha felt that others wouldn't understand his teachings. It wasn't that he needed to pray (to whom) or needed time to balance (local mind).

I would also disagree that one is farther than the other. What is beyond a Buddha? I would say that Jesus was a Buddha as well.. Not that one Buddha is better than another.

Jonesboy, agreed not all would say that, you are right. But many would say Jesus was the greater Buddha in the particular way that humanity is lacking...the heart-led consciousness. Not that we don't all need the guidance of Siddharta re: equanimity, to more deeply reside in the heart centre.

But overcoming the pull to withdraw and self-reference is nearly universal, and that's the real point I was making. Which is that focusing on the bliss as the goal or the desired state has misdirected many. Not that bliss is a bad thing, by any means. It too, like the manifestation in word and deed, is an outcome of the authentic love we are.

Bliss is primarily for ourselves inwardly. Primarily, though perhaps not entirely, of course.

The manifestation in word and deed is a both/and. It is our outpouring of authentic love primarily to others and to all that is, and by deeply engaging, manifestation is also how we receive (like bliss, primarily for ourselves) the outpouring of authentic love from others and all that is.

But there we can look to either Buddha...after a short temptation to withdraw, Siddartha did as Jesus did. He lived, he taught, he engaged deeply, and he gave and received authentic love in word and deed with all he touched or crossed on his path.

Peace and blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Alfor

If "we who artificially make divisions between "waking realm" and "spirit" (or, how we act versus who we truly are at centre)" do not make that division, then there is no need to act to correct anything.

Not making that division is life "living from a place of integration and centre" full stop. There being no misdirection, misperception, nor anything else to correct. It is obvious that "low, degraded, and/or violent ways" cannot be truly corrected by anyone else, but only by the one making that division. And anything other than true correction - ie not making the division, the distinction, in the first place - would only be a 'patch up' not a true correction.

The very act of perceiving such division is the very act of avoiding one's true condition. There is no "we", there is only oneself.

Best wishes,

Absolutely! Well said This is exactly what I was getting at. Of course, we may make the distinctions for pedagogical understanding of the schism and the false divisions that we typically have until realising the artificiality of the division. But we must be able to recognise that this is where most live, or we cannot meet them where they are, to then discuss the integral possibility that conscious choice in alignment with centre both allows and posits.

When we first realise the distinction is false, then we are potentially ready to take ownership of all that we intend, think, say, and do that is misaligned with who we truly are.

AND if in fact we are not yet ready to take ownership of this, but rather we are still consciously choosing to be and do in ways that are misaligned, then we need to own that this is where we are at. And therefore this is where we need to start.

I.e., that in this case, we are here: we are in that divided place of consciously choosing misalignment with who we are at centre. Until and unless we are ready to take ownership for our own integrity. For living more truly in the fullness of our authentic humanity. And realising that the only thing stopping you from realising your integrity and living from your centre...is you

Peace & blessings
7L

[running]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Running, hello there! I certainly hope everyone can be respectful and courteous. Otherwise it's just no fun

In the spirit of graciousness and courtesy, I'm going to put aside everything you've said up till the last paragraph, where you're no longer being accusatory but just stating your differing perspective. Let's take it from there, shall we?

It's not "effort" versus "grace". That's a common misperception, i.e., that our reality is either/or. In so many instances, it's a both/and situation.

That is, manifestation is the natural outpouring of both grace and illumination. It is not separate from the authentic love that we are, but rather an intrinsic aspect of it, so long as we free ourselves to fully engage and ground more deeply in the authentic love that we are.

And a very good night to you, with all due respect and courtesy
Peace & blessings,
7L

what im saying is what's being radiated as joy/bliss/love are all the same tbing. when you say they are different things as in your previous posts talk about. due to somebody doing one tbing. and another doing something else. what im saying is what is being radiated is all the same. if it requires some kinda action then in my view its in the process. once it has become established it should be an ongoing experience. some may call it bliss. another joy. another love. but those are just words describing the same thing.

if you think that can't be. i mean no disrespect but there isn't much more to talk about. simply because its really not important for me to convince you of something just for the sake of debate. the only thing that really matters imo is what works for you. if in your experience or belief bliss/love/joy are different things depending upon somebody doing one thing, somebody doing no tbing, and another doing something else why should i try to convince you it can be experienced in all things all the time? i just dont see it being important enough to carry on about it.

i will just add in my experience grounding in to it has to do with being open not just at top, but from the root up. once everything is all open and established in the body in that its always on bliss doesnf knock you off your feet. it can be flighty in the process. but again once it has become established and worked through the body that goes away. you remain grounded in it no problem.

[django]

Originally Posted by running

what im saying is what's being radiated as joy/bliss/love are all the same tbing. when you say they are different things as in your previous posts talk about. due to somebody doing one tbing. and another doing something else. what im saying is what is being radiated is all the same. if it requires some kinda action then in my view its in the process. once it has become established it should be an ongoing experience. some may call it bliss. another joy. another love. but those are just words describing the same thing.

if you think that can't be. i mean no disrespect but there isn't much more to talk about. simply because its really not important for me to convince you of something just for the sake of debate. the only thing that really matters imo is what works for you. if in your experience or belief bliss/love/joy are different things depending upon somebody doing one thing, somebody doing no tbing, and another doing something else why should i try to convince you it can be experienced in all things all the time? i just dont see it being important enough to carry on about it.

i will just add in my experience grounding in to it has to do with being open not just at top, but from the root up. once everything is all open and established in the body in that its always on bliss doesnf knock you off your feet. it can be flighty in the process. but again once it has become established and worked through the body that goes away. you remain grounded in it no problem.

So are you now saying that your permanent feeling of bliss is exactly the same as permanently feeling love? Love is permanently established in your body for your girlfriend and family? For all of humanity, regardless of their attitude to you? If a stranger makes you feel angry you still completely love them?

I never thought that bliss and love (and joy) all meant exactly the same thing. I can be blissed out on a drug but it doesn't make me feel love or joy. Bliss sounds more chemical to me, even if the chemistry is being created from within. Joy seems more open hearted to me. And loving everyone all of the time would make you a saint in the literal sense.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by running

what im saying is what's being radiated as joy/bliss/love are all the same tbing. when you say they are different things as in your previous posts talk about. due to somebody doing one tbing. and another doing something else. what im saying is what is being radiated is all the same. if it requires some kinda action then in my view its in the process. once it has become established it should be an ongoing experience. some may call it bliss. another joy. another love. but those are just words describing the same thing.

Yeppers, well said.

if you think that can't be. i mean no disrespect but there isn't much more to talk about. simply because its really not important for me to convince you of something just for the sake of debate. the only thing that really matters imo is what works for you. if in your experience or belief bliss/love/joy are different things depending upon somebody doing one thing, somebody doing no tbing, and another doing something else why should i try to convince you it can be experienced in all things all the time? i just dont see it being important enough to carry on about it.

I understand. It's not dependent on doing anything. It's felt regardless of anyone or anything because it doesn't come from anything.

i will just add in my experience grounding in to it has to do with being open not just at top, but from the root up. once everything is all open and established in the body in that its always on bliss doesnf knock you off your feet. it can be flighty in the process. but again once it has become established and worked through the body that goes away. you remain grounded in it no problem.

The grounding is a good point, and getting flighty, intoxicated, can really throw off the balance, so best keep that even balance of equanimity, as it lets a free flow.