Pain and Suffering

Now you are getting it, there is no way to prove it YET. I have some hope that will change. I think you can tie it into the laws of physics or quantum theory in that they also are looking for the last word on truth in the grand unified theory of everything. I have hope that one day there will be a theory that explains it all and I will keep checking in to see if anyone has it yet, both in psychics and in spirituality. So far all I hear is more of the same old ****, but that is not to say one day it will not change. Sure I know it is not there yet but I also hope one day it will be. I have hope that way as i think that is the only obvious purpose for our existence, understanding our existence. I think the grand unified theory could come at exactly the same time as the proof of God does, and I think they will be the same thing.

What I disagree with is people who do not present their beliefs as theories, but as truth. I have no problem with theories I have a problem with those who are arrogant enough to present their personal belief as truth. I have a problem with those who are emotionally attached to their beliefs over what reason suggests to the contrary.

Your life does not reflect your beliefs it reflects the beliefs you have adopted from others. That is the whole point, beliefs are not truths they are adopted unsubstantiated ideas. Would you even have the concept of "agreeing to the so called challenges before you came into this life" without hearing it somewhere else? No of course not. It is not yours it is someone else's, that you adopted. I know you can't see the difference yet though an you? If it was a belief you arrived at yourself it would have required evidence to support it, you would only adopt it because something you saw suggested it exists as reality, not because someone else suggested it as truth. Give me one bit of credible evidence to support that theory. Show me one thing that suggests that we agree to this life before we take it on, just one!!! And please don't give another belief as evidence to support this belief as you have done so far. The problem is you function more emotionally than logically and since you combine them you can not see where one leaves off and the other begins. I want logic, not emotion, I don't want to hear what you want to have as reality I want to hear what you can prove as reality. Sorry but I don't think I can put it any other way.

And again about free will I told you you won't get it. You watch someone will come along who can detach enough from their programming to recognize it as programming and support what I said here. You can't see it for the very thing I said causes it, your programming. There is no choice or free will, it is all illusion. You do not understand that your personality is part of your life circumstances as well. So anything you do as a result of who you think you are (persona) is just more programming that was imposed on you. If all that you think you are is programming what part of you came here to challenge any part of life? The ego is not you so how could it come here to challenge anything? Rather than me go into it again here read my post of free will in that thread, that goes into it much better.

But just for the hell of it I will give it another quick shot. Like you said you were "reprogrammed a bit differently before you met this person". Do you not see how your actions from that point on are tied into that programming? The glasses you perceive the world through have changed and that changes every way you interact with the world. Cause and effect. Was that reprogramming your choice or did it happen naturally? If it happened to you instead of because of you, then you had no choice in it, and even if it had to do with your egos choice then that was still not your choice but your programmings choice. Your choices fro then on are filtered through this new programming which unavoidably leads you to an action that you think is choice. Until you can be someone else in any given situation you are trapped within your profile. Your profile is biased in a million different ways, and these biases create your so called choices. Your ego is nothing more than programmed biases, and everyone has a different set of them. They are just so close to them that they think they are who they are. Your biases are adopted all of them are.

No we don't have to have faith, we can have the strength to accept we don't know. I have no problem exploring ideas that require faith, I have issues with accepting them as truth. Why would anyone accept a theory of faith without proof? You may as well throw a dart at a board and go with whatever it lands on. You have to base your ideas of truth on something and that something for intelligent people is proof. And like is said I do not believe the question is unanswerable, just unanswerable by the so called experts on sites like this. I am against it because people kill for beliefs not for truths. If you challenge someone about their idea that 4 + 4 = 8 they will laugh at you and walk away but challenge someone about what they believe about god and they will kill you rather than look at the possibility of them being wrong. That is because deep down they know they do not know, and rather than face that reality and give up the comfort it brings them, and face the pain of not knowing, they go on the attack. Where there is belief there is doubt, and where there is doubt there discomfort. People believe for comfort, but that comfort comes with the price of rigidity. I am tired of paying the price for others rigidity.

[sound]

Gsquare61 welcome to the community first up :)

With every respect, it sounds like you are trying to program others into believing what you believe/tell them lol ...

As for the book you quoted now we are talking. That is what I am looking for substantiated ideas, evidence to base the theory on, not just beliefs. Now we can intelligently debate the merits of the research that was done in that book, you can not debate beliefs, for without evidence to support them there is no way to refute or substantiate that evidence. I can say anything I want without supporting it, it is easy to pull it -snip- if I do not have to support it. And if you do not support it why would anyone care to adopt it? At least anyone with brain in their head? If it is a feeling they have in their gut then they already have it and don't need to hear about your feeling as well. Unless they are looking for cheap support for their feelings so they can have the comfort it brings them.

Edited by SF Staff

Well "sound" perhaps you can enlighten me on what I am trying to program them with? Intelligent dialog oh no!!! How can I be asking for answers if I am trying to program others with my beliefs? Am I not allowed to question the answers they pushed at me using the most up to date accepted ideas in the areas of discussion? The ones found in the textbooks universities use to define truth. If not then this site is just about people posting whatever -snip- not about helping others to understand it or trying to find truth.

And likewise no offense but someone with the tag of "master" sounds much more like they are promoting an agenda than me asking for proof does as a newbie.

Edited by SF Staff

Look this isn't brain surgery! In the very first post of this thread I said and I quote "Can anyone actually address this with some sense of reason and logic without the usual old standby "just because" kind of answers?"

I made it blatantly clear that I was not interested in hearing from people who could not substantiate what they were going to say to me in some way. If they choose to not respect that request then don't blame me for coming down hard on them. It was their choice to push their beliefs on me when I explained I was not interested in them doing that. I started this thread and layed out the guidelines for having a dialog with me, I said clearly what I was looking for. Now if you interpret that as trying to program them then yes I am trying to program them into having the consideration to respect other peoples wishes. There was nothing wishy washy about it to interpret it as a thread I started to post whatever your beliefs are. If that is what you want start your own thread and explain "you have no desire for logic or reason in it, just any old thing someone can come up with will do", and I will gladly respect that and stay out of your thread. I don't mean to sound harsh but once again I am tired of paying the price for other peoples rigidity in their beliefs. If you want to try and help me find an answer to my question or contribute to this thread please respect what I asked at the beginning. I am the kind of person who needs facts not beliefs and if you don't have any facts to support your beliefs then you are only posting for your own narcissistic needs to be met in getting your agenda out there, please don't try and pass that off as helping me. I will call you on it every time.

[sound]

Originally Posted by Gsquared61

And likewise no offense but someone with the tag of "master" sounds much more like they are promoting an agenda than me asking for proof does as a newbie.

as for the title master ... thats got to do with post count and is part of the program .... the members have no control over that ... if it was up to me i would have it set as member for myself .... or master of self perhaps lol ...

As for me having an agenda ... yeah i did ... it was to point out what your posts feel like to me ... here's a little exercise for fun if you can be bothered ... try replacing the word 'you' in your posts with personal pronouns and see if they still resonate with you ...

[Michelle11]

"What I disagree with is people who do not present their beliefs as theories, but as truth. I have no problem with theories I have a problem with those who are arrogant enough to present their personal belief as truth. I have a problem with those who are emotionally attached to their beliefs over what reason suggests to the contrary."

I guess to this you may be giving people too much power. I do not expect anyone to take what I say as gospel. I actually state quite frankly that what I express is my opinion, my belief and I don't insist people believe.

"This is where I stand and what I believe. I do hope you were able to see a bit more order in the chaos that is life in what I have said but you have the free will to agree or not."

If you think I was trying to insist you believe than that is something you decided to do. Just because someone throws a theory at you doesn't mean you have to take it on board. If you do then you only have yourself to blame. It is not being forced on you. I offer up my theories with the best intentions hoping only to help. The thing is you are on a spiritual site and as such you are speaking about life in the esoteric. Spirituality and religion are fully entrenched in belief, faith and trust. Blind faith they say. But it sounds like you are looking for quantifiable proof and I am not certain you will find it here. We speak in theories beliefs and ideas. If you are dead set on finding proof you may want to try a quantum physics site and see if they have any scientific ideas of what life is all about. But coming to a spiritual site and expecting scientific proof may be setting yourself up for disappointment.

I understand you have had a rough time of it, more so than most people and I am truly sorry for that. I do hope you are able to find the answers you seek one day. Take care of yourself.

Michelle

This is so easy I can not for the life of me figure out how you can not see this. You talk of me disrespecting you but I asked you not to post your beliefs on my thread. Did you respect that? No, then when I get frustrated with the fact you did not respect that you complain I disrespected you. Then you say it is my fault for asking for facts or proof on a spiritual forum where there can be no such thing in spirituality. More disrespect because that is again just another one of your beliefs that you put forth as fact (that there can be no proof, facts, or evidence in spirituality) and you used that belief to do what I asked you not to do. You actually believe that since you believe there can be no proof or evidence that allows you to disrespect my request!! And it is a ridiculous statement in itself. What do ghost hunters look for if not evidence, what do regressive hypnosis researchers look for, and why do they call it research instead of belief? What does any parapsychologist, spiritual seeker, or even devout Christian look for in miracles if not to prove or evidence of their beliefs? Then you even deny you posted it as truth rather than as theories, then you go back and edit your posts. You just said once again here that I have myself to blame for not accepting theories. When you did not even post your beliefs as theories in the first place, you posted them as facts and even came right out and said something like "you can believe me or not but I know" No you don't know and that is my point, you guess at best. And if you say you know on my post I will tear you a new one in trying to see how much you do know. Don't blame me for your actions they are yours. But even if what you just said was not an out and out lie, and you did post it as a theory, where was the evidence to support your theories that I requested? See I don't sugar coat the disrespect or start it, that is the only difference here. I hate when people smile at you while they are disrespecting you, that is more condescending to me that just being authentic and calling it what it is.

If you want to post your beliefs do it on your own thread, nothing gives you the license or right to do it on mine where I clearly asked for you not to do it. Then to blame me for that is beyond my ability to not say something about it. So if I get kicked from this site for having boundaries so be it I will take that hit rather than have people like you push your beliefs on me, disrespect me, then call it my fault.

Next even though nothing justifies your actions I will still ad this anyway as a logical counter argument to the point you made. Physics, Biology, Astronomy, Mathematics , Anthropology, Sociology, and many other facets of science and learning contribute to the spiritual knowledge base. Quantum theory has done more to support some eastern religious ideas than anything else in millennium. The scientists who are not biased and can see the relationships in quantum theory and spirituality are now researching both at the same time, for they like me think both sides might be looking into the same thing. They realize that the few true seekers (not believers) on both sides are looking for the same thing, "the ultimate truth". Skeptical or non believing scientists are as biased in their beliefs as most of those I have encountered on this site are in their beliefs of not being open. Anyone who can not get that has no business talking to me.

The thing is I am on a site where it appears the division is still blatantly clear. For the most part this appears to be a site of believers not seekers of truth. This kind is the polar opposite of the scientists who do not believe at all. You both are two sides of the same coin and don't see it yet. And your polarity will keep you both from finding truth. To see truth one must incorporate the whole coin, one must use the intuition and personal experience associated with spirituality along with the logic and reason of science, remove either one and you are screwed as far as finding truth goes. The ones that I have encountered on this site so far are the opposite of a scientist, you require no evidence just belief. I am in the middle I use both, and obviously don't fit in here either, perhaps I should look for a different site where people seek truth over blind belief. This is why I am so alone because few are on the middle path, old science believes there is nothing to spirituality and the old spirituality believes there is no value in the methods of science. When I said I am of both worlds that is what I meant.

Michelle I know you think you presented your beliefs as opinion but the problem with belief is it comes out enthusiastically, and seldom are words like "I think", "I suggest" or "I theorize" included. You did not say it that way at all, and if you didn't edit your posts you could have gone back and read what you did say, but my guess is that is why you edited it in the first place.

I agree with one thing you said. Yes I believe you are right in that there is the underlying understanding by those who are more knowledgeable that anything another says it automatically only their belief. I guess this debate about giving other people too much power is like the debate about anyone in a position of power using it to manipulate others. Yes for someone like me your beliefs are as weighty as a feather, but to new people to the spiritual realm your opinions have great power. They are looking for answers and when someone says they have them, (they do not know they are full of it yet) and trust them. I know they are not God personified so anything they say must be taken with a grain of salt. But to newbies that is not the case and you ave a responsibility there in the way of karma that will come back to you. Yes on the other side of that to not take what others say with a grain of salt is just being too stupid or naive to not deserve to get clobbered for it, and one could say someone who believes that blindly deserves what they get. But that does not absolve you of your end of it. And the problem for me in that, when I first started out on this quest 30 years ago it took the majority of my time to just wade through the books and interviews of the people who said they knew or acted like they knew and didn't. Their out of control egos cost me allot of wasted time, and I can see how it still could hurt others. Yes sure it all might happen for reason and the way to truth could be a process of elimination of having to wade through all the ****** edges to get to the valuable middle, but that is not to say those people are excused of any wrong doing by having a huge ego that is out of control. The less educated ones who come onto sites like this and follow blindly or spend most of their valuable time trying to figure out if you "know" like you claim too "know" or don't "know" and are full of it, are being manipulated by you! Yes there is learning in seeing that people like you don't know the way you claim too when you cross examine them, but that is besides the point. But the other thing is you give spirituality a bad reputation and that is why science stays away from it. There have been too many who say they know to fall to the wayside of being proven wrong by science, and so science now does not believe anything anyone says who is spiritual has to say (it is the cry wolf thing), and that alienation of the scientific realm takes away from the quest to find the ultimate truth, and that ultimately hurts me because that is my goal.

Again you don't seem to get this at all yet, if you presented your idea originally as a theory (even though I still asked for evidence to support them and you provided none) I would have probably said nothing, but you didn't and now you are backtracking trying to make this my fault for responding to your ego that was out of control. Your ability to deny is amazing, it is not like once you put it down here it disappears and you can deny saying it. Oh right you can because that is where editing comes in doesn’t it? Anyway I suggest you take ownership and just say to yourself and/or me that I will try to re frame my beliefs in the future as opinions, rather than continue down this same path of denial. It just shows more of the ego that got me going in the first place. And I will keep doing this as long as you refuse to acknowledge it or I get kicked out of the site.

I am sorry to the moderators if that is disrespectful but if you have problems with reality perhaps you should rename this site to something like “The we have our heads in sand spiritual site” Life is the path and so is any aspect of it, even vigorous or ugly arguments, are part of that process. To try and remove the negative from the dualistic pair of “negative and positive” is about as realistic as trying to remove the mountains and keep the valleys.

This brings up another problem I have with the so called "spiritual people" and sites like this that I have seen in abundance. You think being spiritual is the denial of every natural negative impulse we have, you think god is only positive and that anything that is not positive is not about God. So again I ask which side of the coin is god on when it comes to mountains and valleys, man or woman, up or down, day or night. For something to be true it must be consistent and to think god is on one side of some pairs of duality and not on others is just beyond my ability to not laugh at it.

For "sound" no I won't refrain from using the word "you", I am not mired down in political correctness. If someone does something to me I will point them out, end of story. I am sorry if that offends you but then again I am about the freedom of speech not the political correct thing. Everyone knows who you are talking about anyway, like do you really think that removing the "you" makes it less transparent? And you just addressed me as "you" to say don't say "you" is that not hypocritical? Is it more OK for you to do it, to make the point that I do it? That seems worse to me because I am not making a point of saying I don't believe in doing that then doing it anyway!!

Thanks for clearing up the "master" thing those that way really bothering me.