A few questions?

[bflare]

I started looking into personal development about 4 years ago when i was at a low point in my life & decided to make a change for the better. I stopped smoking, quit drinking & lost over 80lb in weight. I got heavily into fitness & weight training. I also got my finances in check & my overall health. I spent hours reading books such as The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Peaceful Warrior & watching Youtube video's. I eventually started noticing a lot about meditation & spirituality which pointed me in the direction of Eckhart Tolle who I found fascinating. This led me onto people such as Rupert Spira & more recently Adyashanti.

I had been documenting everything I found on personal development & later spirituality with the hope of writing a book to help others attain their goals in life & overcome challenges. This was going great & I thought I had found my purpose in life until one day not long a go I had this terrible feeling & new line of thought. I started thinking that ultimately one can not be truly happy unless they awaken, transcend the ego & no longer have any attachments. I then thought well if this is the case does this not mean that my passion for fitness & weight training is part of the ego? Is the massive amount of knowledge I had learnt about personal development a waste as none of it can truly make you happy? What would be the point in me writing a book for others as no matter what I tell people in it, none of it would make anyone else truly happy & all they need to do is to awaken? I actually feel a bit deflated because I seemed to have a direction in life & now it seems as if I will never be fulfilled unless I become enlightened? I also ponder the question regarding general western achievements such as getting a good education & employment. What is the point if none of it will bring you happiness & your just chasing your tail? I hope I am just having a negative period of contemplating things & the last 4 years of my life have not been a waste? I guess this leads me to the following questions:

1. Can you be happy or at least content without been enlightened?
2. Why isn’t spirituality taught in schools especially meditation?
3. If attachment creates suffering then how do we love someone & evolve as a species if we shouldn’t get attached?
4. Is 99% of the population unhappy?
5. Why isn’t depression & substance abuse looked at from a spiritual point of view?
6. Is achieving things such as promotions at work & good grades futile?

Look forward to your replies & comments.

Thanks,

Tony.

hi there, bflare, and welcome.

Well, I'm about so I'll have a go! Keeping it short as I have to go out in a few.

Originally Posted by bflare

I started looking into personal development about 4 years ago when i was at a low point in my life & decided to make a change for the better. I stopped smoking, quit drinking & lost over 80lb in weight. I got heavily into fitness & weight training. I also got my finances in check & my overall health. I spent hours reading books such as The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Peaceful Warrior & watching Youtube video's. I eventually started noticing a lot about meditation & spirituality which pointed me in the direction of Eckhart Tolle who I found fascinating. This led me onto people such as Rupert Spira & more recently Adyashanti.

I had been documenting everything I found on personal development & later spirituality with the hope of writing a book to help others attain their goals in life & overcome challenges.

A great idea. Why not write it anyway. A practical help is always useful for those just starting up but even if you don't publish it now you will have ordered your ideas.

1. Can you be happy or at least content without been enlightened?

Happiness comes in degrees. I'm pretty anti-the idea that "enlightenment" comes in one blast and that it's some sort of spiritual panacea. It often comes as a series of initiations. Like happiness it comes in degrees. However, some dogmas claim it comes in one go.

2. Why isn’t spirituality taught in schools especially meditation?

Where abouts are you? In the UK it would be contentious as we have mostly state funded schools. Political correctness would come into it. It would have to be a private school. We have a few monasterial retreats, one close by is Buddhist.

One problem is that it's too individual and often unearths personal problems so there'd have to be resources to deal with them. If one had to rely on one teacher it could turn into a religion, a doctrinaire. A browse through this forum will show just how individual people's spiritual situations, levels of understanding and aims can get. One's path is always one's own.

3. If attachment creates suffering then how do we love someone & evolve as a species if we shouldn’t get attached?

That's an assumption: attachment creates suffering. It might - if to material things it could create wage-slavery. It does depend on a person's expectations so I don't think it holds true in every case. Besides, attachment is a broad idea. Different levels of attachment have different effects. Mutual attachment to a person could promote spiritual growth, the whole being greater than the sum of the two.

4. Is 99% of the population unhappy?

Probably! But it's their choice. They can do something about it if they choose.

5. Why isn’t depression & substance abuse looked at from a spiritual point of view?

It is.

6. Is achieving things such as promotions at work & good grades futile?

Not at all. It depends what your aims are. You have quoted a few authors who consider themselves authorities. They have made a certain grade and consider themselves promoted "leaders" or teachers. If they help people, fine. I'm inclined to agree about futile for many positions in management structures but that's beside the point. For someone eager to control resources, promotion would seem important. If they#re good at it it could be good for all under their wing.

My views such as they are. I'd elaborate on a number of points but...perhaps if there's time later.

[DreamKey]

Originally Posted by bflare

I started looking into personal development about 4 years ago when i was at a low point in my life & decided to make a change for the better. I stopped smoking, quit drinking & lost over 80lb in weight. I got heavily into fitness & weight training. I also got my finances in check & my overall health. I spent hours reading books such as The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Peaceful Warrior & watching Youtube video's. I eventually started noticing a lot about meditation & spirituality which pointed me in the direction of Eckhart Tolle who I found fascinating. This led me onto people such as Rupert Spira & more recently Adyashanti.

I had been documenting everything I found on personal development & later spirituality with the hope of writing a book to help others attain their goals in life & overcome challenges. This was going great & I thought I had found my purpose in life until one day not long a go I had this terrible feeling & new line of thought. I started thinking that ultimately one can not be truly happy unless they awaken, transcend the ego & no longer have any attachments. I then thought well if this is the case does this not mean that my passion for fitness & weight training is part of the ego? Is the massive amount of knowledge I had learnt about personal development a waste as none of it can truly make you happy? What would be the point in me writing a book for others as no matter what I tell people in it, none of it would make anyone else truly happy & all they need to do is to awaken? I actually feel a bit deflated because I seemed to have a direction in life & now it seems as if I will never be fulfilled unless I become enlightened? I also ponder the question regarding general western achievements such as getting a good education & employment. What is the point if none of it will bring you happiness & your just chasing your tail? I hope I am just having a negative period of contemplating things & the last 4 years of my life have not been a waste? I guess this leads me to the following questions:

1. Can you be happy or at least content without been enlightened?
2. Why isn’t spirituality taught in schools especially meditation?
3. If attachment creates suffering then how do we love someone & evolve as a species if we shouldn’t get attached?
4. Is 99% of the population unhappy?
5. Why isn’t depression & substance abuse looked at from a spiritual point of view?
6. Is achieving things such as promotions at work & good grades futile?

Look forward to your replies & comments.

Thanks,

Tony.

I also think Adya and Eckhart are two of the more in touch spirchul dudes out there. I think a few of your questions come embedded with some underlying assumptions about what enlightenment is that aren't necessarily true (which isn't to say they're necessarily false).

There is a conditioned movement of experience that is not other than the personal self. Creation, itself, is a singular movement. The person, through the ability to think, feel, and conceptualize, breaks off from that movement as an apparently conditioned thinker. Ultimately speaking, this is consciousness breaking away from itself.

During this process, identification with the person happens. You could look at it as a loss of consciousness of one's apparent self. From within this unconscious mind identification, the idea that one can become 'more conscious', more enlightened, or enlightened at all, arise from within the already existing misconception that one is not just a person but only a separate person. This is God's delusion.

To then say do I need to become enlightened so that the separate person can have a happy life indicates a lack of understanding of the paradigm shift that is implicit in personal transcendence or enlightenment.

Of course to say you are not the separate person is not to deny the apparent experience of being separate. If you can't accept being overweight you'll likely find a healthier approach to diet and exercise conducive to greater levels of contentment. If your personal or emotional needs are not being met by your current living situation, you can either change that situation or drop the needs themselves. There is no one size fits all answer to the questions.

Within the realm of desire, you may find self seeking is an always unconscious thing. The idea you need anything to be anyway to be whole is the core delusion of an unconscious collective engine. This doesn't mean to not seek enlightenment or happiness. Consciousness is prior to the appearance of form and the substance of all form appearing. Only through the person's mental acrobatics can something like identification happen making the potential to become more conscious possible. Being conscious of the dynamics disallows them from running unconsciously, which can lead to less unconscious beliefs disconnecting you from your present moment journey. Less fear equals more engagement, which allows joy to flow less restricted by mind's walled off I'm a separate person in a crazy separate world type thingy.

[bflare]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

hi there, bflare, and welcome.

Well, I'm about so I'll have a go! Keeping it short as I have to go out in a few.


A great idea. Why not write it anyway. A practical help is always useful for those just starting up but even if you don't publish it now you will have ordered your ideas.
Happiness comes in degrees. I'm pretty anti-the idea that "enlightenment" comes in one blast and that it's some sort of spiritual panacea. It often comes as a series of initiations. Like happiness it comes in degrees. However, some dogmas claim it comes in one go.

Where abouts are you? In the UK it would be contentious as we have mostly state funded schools. Political correctness would come into it. It would have to be a private school. We have a few monasterial retreats, one close by is Buddhist.

One problem is that it's too individual and often unearths personal problems so there'd have to be resources to deal with them. If one had to rely on one teacher it could turn into a religion, a doctrinaire. A browse through this forum will show just how individual people's spiritual situations, levels of understanding and aims can get. One's path is always one's own.

That's an assumption: attachment creates suffering. It might - if to material things it could create wage-slavery. It does depend on a person's expectations so I don't think it holds true in every case. Besides, attachment is a broad idea. Different levels of attachment have different effects. Mutual attachment to a person could promote spiritual growth, the whole being greater than the sum of the two.
Probably! But it's their choice. They can do something about it if they choose.
It is.
Not at all. It depends what your aims are. You have quoted a few authors who consider themselves authorities. They have made a certain grade and consider themselves promoted "leaders" or teachers. If they help people, fine. I'm inclined to agree about futile for many positions in management structures but that's beside the point. For someone eager to control resources, promotion would seem important. If they#re good at it it could be good for all under their wing.

My views such as they are. I'd elaborate on a number of points but...perhaps if there's time later.

Thank you very much Lorelyen. I appreciate your reply & you have given me something to think about & digest. By the way, yes I am in the UK and your point regarding it been contentious is very valid.

Thanks again.

Tony.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by bflare

I started thinking that ultimately one can not be truly happy unless they awaken, transcend the ego & no longer have any attachments.

I then thought well if this is the case does this not mean that my passion for fitness & weight training is part of the ego?

Is the massive amount of knowledge I had learnt about personal development a waste as none of it can truly make you happy?

What would be the point in me writing a book for others as no matter what I tell people in it, none of it would make anyone else truly happy & all they need to do is to awaken?

I actually feel a bit deflated because I seemed to have a direction in life & now it seems as if I will never be fulfilled unless I become enlightened?

I also ponder the question regarding general western achievements such as getting a good education & employment. What is the point if none of it will bring you happiness & your just chasing your tail?

I hope I am just having a negative period of contemplating things & the last 4 years of my life have not been a waste? I guess this leads me to the following questions:

1. Can you be happy or at least content without been enlightened?
2. Why isn’t spirituality taught in schools especially meditation?
3. If attachment creates suffering then how do we love someone & evolve as a species if we shouldn’t get attached?
4. Is 99% of the population unhappy?
5. Why isn’t depression & substance abuse looked at from a spiritual point of view?
6. Is achieving things such as promotions at work & good grades futile?

Look forward to your replies & comments.

Thanks,

Tony.

1. Yes. But if a person is attached to happy, then they will feel sad when the happy is gone.

A person who is indifferent to happy and sad never experiences either, but observes both. IS happy when they are happy. Is sad when they are sad. But they have no feeling as to if either is better or worse. Everything simply is, it has no meaning. Happy is not to be followed, sad not to be evaded. What comes, will come, and will be let go when it leaves.

2. Because it must be experineced, and experinece is subjective.

Teaching spirituality in schools would be the ultimate form of brain-washing.

teaching meditation, which is usually just observation, may soon be taught in schools. because it is about examining things and coming to our own conclusion (mindfulness).

3. We love them then we let go of the love and attachment. and we have faith it will return to us.

Most want to love and not let go, they have no faith that what is important will return. If we never let go, how can we know what is truly important?

4. Idk. However I doubt it. There are 2 answers to the question "is a population unhappy?", yes and no, therefore my assumption and proposition is that 50% of the population is happy, and 50% unhappy. Or to be more clear. 33% very happy. 33% unhappy. 33% a mix of both. Within these populations we experience a spectrum, the 32% are just a little unhappy, and the 1% VERRRRYYYYY unhappy (or happy, depending which side of the spectrum).

5. It is in some places, but not by the majority. If you want to hear those places, simply think of them and go find them. They are out there.

Look up tantric hinduism. The tantric sages says intoxication is to be avoided, but alcohol is condoned.
Therefore we must ask what intoxication means.

If we use alcohol to alter our consciousness because we are seeking to understand our self better, then alcohol is not intoxicating, it is enlightening. it is showing us new parts of ourself, helping us form new thoughts.

When we use drugs to evade the self and its truths, then we are intoxicating.

I would put my reputation on the line to say that there are people who intoxicate their self with emotions and knowledge, they don't even need drugs to hide their inner self beneath a thousand egos.

6. No, because if we can find a lesson or meaning that helps us live a more moral and spiritual life, then nothing we experinece is futile.

I've derived spiritual meaning from looking at a leaf.

I've seen people go on a 10 day meditation retreat, come back and be more spiritually lost than ever before.

it's about the motion of the ocean, not the size of the ship. how a person uses what they have is more important than what they have to begin with.

You are not the question looking for the answer, you are the answer looking for the question. The question is "What is the question to the answer?"

Originally Posted by bflare

1. Can you be happy or at least content without been enlightened?

Many are happy and are neither Spiritual nor enlightened, but it seems enlightened is entirely subjective.

Originally Posted by bflare

2. Why isn’t spirituality taught in schools especially meditation?

In preference to so many other belief systems? You have your perceptions of what Spirituality is to you personally but I'd think the majority of people don't share your beliefs. Some perceive Spirituality as contradictory and not any practical use to them in 'real Life'. Some people are as dismissive of Spirituality as Spiritual people are of 'real Life'.

Originally Posted by bflare

3. If attachment creates suffering then how do we love someone & evolve as a species if we shouldn’t get attached?

It's not attachment that creates suffering it's people that creates it. Spirituality says that we are here to learn the lessons, develop Spiritually etc but what helps us do that is suffering - and negative/toxic. Go figure.

Originally Posted by bflare

5. Why isn’t depression & substance abuse looked at from a spiritual point of view?

How would Spirituality help in these cases, realistically? How much did Spirituality change your Life? It seems to me that what turned you around was personal development and Spirituality followed on from there.

Originally Posted by bflare

6. Is achieving things such as promotions at work & good grades futile?

Not to the person who strives to be better at their chosen field, just they same as others choose to be better at developing themselves Spiritually - unless of course Spirituality is different.

So, all those (probably) millions of people on the planet who don't live up to the Spiritual ideal means millions of Souls have chosen an existence that's totally pointless?

Go write your book already because if that makes you feel fulfilled it means you are 'doing what you came here to do'. Drop what doesn't serve you, take what resonates with you as your own truth, leave the rest behind because it is not yours. Even though your book isn't about Spirituality per se it has a Spiritual purpose just the same, because what it might do is enhance the experience of a Soul on this plane of existence. Isn't that something to be aware of and enlightened to?

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You are not the question looking for the answer, you are the answer looking for the question. The question is "What is the question to the answer?"
Many are happy and are neither Spiritual nor enlightened, but it seems enlightened is entirely subjective.
In preference to so many other belief systems? You have your perceptions of what Spirituality is to you personally but I'd think the majority of people don't share your beliefs. Some perceive Spirituality as contradictory and not any practical use to them in 'real Life'. Some people are as dismissive of Spirituality as Spiritual people are of 'real Life'.
It's not attachment that creates suffering it's people that creates it. Spirituality says that we are here to learn the lessons, develop Spiritually etc but what helps us do that is suffering - and negative/toxic. Go figure.
How would Spirituality help in these cases, realistically? How much did Spirituality change your Life? It seems to me that what turned you around was personal development and Spirituality followed on from there.
Not to the person who strives to be better at their chosen field, just they same as others choose to be better at developing themselves Spiritually - unless of course Spirituality is different.

So, all those (probably) millions of people on the planet who don't live up to the Spiritual ideal means millions of Souls have chosen an existence that's totally pointless?

Go write your book already because if that makes you feel fulfilled it means you are 'doing what you came here to do'. Drop what doesn't serve you, take what resonates with you as your own truth, leave the rest behind because it is not yours. Even though your book isn't about Spirituality per se it has a Spiritual purpose just the same, because what it might do is enhance the experience of a Soul on this plane of existence. Isn't that something to be aware of and enlightened to?

this is inspiring! I want to save this post to my favorites bar or something lol

[keokutah]

Happiness comes from inside of you.

Have you ever heard that the need to brag, and the need to find credence in the steps that got you here, from others,
only stems from a very self-conscious part of you?

I find that the more spiritual I become, the more people do not take me seriously about anything in life, and that is a blessing and a curse. Why would I spend my time trying to help others, if they truly do not care about what I have to say, or if what I say is actually harmful to them? Why don't people take me seriously? It is a combination of things. They feel me vibrating at a higher frequency than they are, they intuitively and subconsciously sense it, and that threatens them.
Psychologically and emotionally, people hate feeling inferior, and the majority of people in any given social situation are extremely aware of their social status. Low-frequency humans aren't equipped to deal with high-frequency humans. Some higher frequency humans are prone to becoming preachy and "it's my way or the highway".
As a high-frequency human you have the responsibility to realize that your very presence can actually harm those who are lower frequency and that there are various levels of enlightenment, not just yours, and not just your grand idea about it. What works for you, is not going to work for someone else. Everybody needs different things at different levels. Does that make preaching things to people pointless? Possibly. But that doesn't mean you can't help others. Soon, people may be at your stage and the things you have to say might help them then. But you can't except it to help all people, especially the ones who aren't ready. Then, pushing those things onto people can actually be damaging.

If I may be so blunt, maybe you weren't writing the book to help others, maybe you wrote it to justify and find credibility in your own experiences because you do not feel confident in your progress and that lack of confidence is what causes you to undermine and question your own experiences. I only mention that, because it seems like you care more about what other people think, and what other people go through than being true to your own self.
My question is, if it was truly all a waste of time, would you really be here right now? I don't think so. It's obvious that you came a long way, and the steps you took truly did help you. Just because you're having a down moment, doesn't mean it was all a waste of time. You're probably a perfectionist, and so nothing will be good enough until you achieve enlightenment, but maybe you're overthinking it a bit.

And just because the steps you took, aren't the same as the steps someone else took, doesn't mean you are wrong. My other question is, why does it matter if your experiences resonate with others?
What is apparent in this world, is that everyone is different, and not one single person thrives on one method of recovery from whatever is ailing them. Working out might be the answer for many, but it may not be the answer for many others.
On my path through enlightenment, I came across many different stages of enlightenment, some that are quite paradoxical and contradicitng in nature. At different stages you truly need different things.

Being happy and content IS the definition of enlightenment in Buddhism. I do not believe in a fixed enlightenment, so the way I use it means an ongoing process. I do not believe it ever stops, just like the circle of life. I'm not sure what your definition of it is.

You can't evolve as a species and become unconditionally loving until you learn to love yourselves first. And loving yourself requires depending on yourself, learning self-reliance, and that requires letting go of your attachments to others and learning that happiness truly comes from within, and not other people.
True unconditional love is not an attachment or ownership. An unhealthy form of love is an attachment. You shouldn't be attached to people to love them, they are never yours to own, nothing is. Truly love someone and you'll want what is best for them, not to hold them down with toxic emotional attachments.

What's the point of doing things you hate? Nothing. Life is short, so do things you love, that's what I believe at least. And maybe work promotions and good grades are what some people truly do love. Everyone is different. We all have different purposes and different dreams, different ideas of what bliss might look like for us.
Depression and substance abuse are looked at in a spiritual point of view with AA and NA and SAA and EDA etc... that untraditional spiritual program is actually more prevalent than any other traditional therapy and is often used by people who have mental diseases in general.
Probably a huge percentage of the population are unhappy, because all they do is focus on doing things they hate doing.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by bflare

1. Can you be happy or at least content without been enlightened?

Yes, you can be happy without being enlightened but that happiness is usually attached to some transitory thing on the outside; while the happiness which comes from enlightenment is not dependent on outside situations, etc.

Originally Posted by bflare

2. Why isn’t spirituality taught in schools especially meditation?

Because a lot of Christians see meditation as belonging to Hinduism or Buddhism, and thus it is from another religion. They do not see it as something which is talked about in the Bible, and Christianity is the largest, and most dominant, religion in America.

Originally Posted by bflare

3. If attachment creates suffering then how do we love someone & evolve as a species if we shouldn’t get attached?

Relationships evolve, and for better or worst they change. You can be in a relationship with someone and love them without putting chains on them. The thing about attachment is that it generates expectations, and the only thing you can expect from impermanence is that things will change. You can get hurt if you don't adapt to change. But we should love unconditionally and not whether a person stays with us or not.

Originally Posted by bflare

4. Is 99% of the population unhappy?

I really don't know, but I suspect that most people have situational happiness.

Originally Posted by bflare

5. Why isn’t depression & substance abuse looked at from a spiritual point of view?

Because most of the people in this world are religious and not spiritual, but there are programs like AA which supports recovery from substance abuse from a spiritual perspective.

Originally Posted by bflare

6. Is achieving things such as promotions at work & good grades futile?

No! those things allow us to have a good living in man-made society, and they may give us the disciple needed on a spiritual path.

Originally Posted by bflare

Look forward to your replies & comments.

Thanks,

Tony.

You are welcome!

[lemex]

I had been documenting everything I found on personal development & later spirituality with the hope of writing a book to help others attain their goals in life & overcome challenges.

This was going great & I thought I had found my purpose in life until one day not long a go I had this terrible feeling & new line of thought. I started thinking that ultimately one can not be truly happy unless they awaken, transcend the ego & no longer have any attachments. -------------------- -----------> (process going on to) What would be the point in me writing a book for others as no matter what I tell people ........

Now that you've heard answers to your questions I trust you again see and feel again the value of your writing.

As an author you are in the process of examining and probably realize even when writing we are drawn back to the subject through examination of it, it's easy to get lost in a personal way. The process one experiences in writing (the book) is the process when not writing a book, just be aware. iow you go through the process examining the subject and doing so become affected by it. You are resisting!

Then we begin to project from ourselves to everyone. That is totally logical. We apply old feelings and the negative to stop ourselves maybe. We lose sight of the bigger picture. Do we over exaggerate making feeling fit. Notice the process. We can see a trap and dare I say an excuse to avoid what the mind see. Then it expands and you begin to think more logically. I've taken the same approach in life so know it. Just be aware it can happen.

I'd say don't write the book with the idea of trying to fix something because you can't ever see it, what a good author does is provide "information" that can be used. One of the things you may want to consider is academic study learning how to say different words and be trained, learning to withdraw self from the subject. One can also have a chapter of the experiences and techniques which can be helpful. Make your goal only about writing.