Linguistic Limitations

[Gem]

I think we hear the same old stuff over and over again and what once sounded kinda deep becomes like silly pop song to us, but when people speak in a really meaningful way, it just rings with sincerity, and mostly it doesn't repeat the catch phrases of spiritual pop culture.

[Nameless]

I agree with the difficulty of this type of communication - without *seeing* the person that is typing up the words and trying to communicate in this fashion as best they can their intention, clues are missed out on, because we speak in person with one another through so many other forms of communication besides words, that when you only have words to communicate but no body language, it is more difficult to pick up on the one doing the communicating's intentions.

And so sometimes the intention behind the words gets losted, or misplaced, and the flavor of the communication is lacking something.

But it's all we got :) so we try our best to get across that which we are trying to relate.

It is really really interesting, as any parent will tell you, to try and teach words to children, because the English language has so many different meanings for each word - even the little tiny words, like and AND the. Complicate that with trying to teach a child who is dyslexic how to READ the english language and, as I have done, you find that the only way to teach them (at least that I have found that works) is a system where they build the alphabet in clay, thereby pulling the letters into the 3D world, whereas before they were hidden in the 2D world. Once they learn the alphabet, then they build a word in clay, and make a picture out of the clay for one definition of the word and they give it a name (which is the word) and take a *picture* of it in their mind, so they now know what that word means to them. A simple example of that would be a clay picture of 2 children holding hands, for the word *and*.

Having had that experience with my child, I can honestly say, when communicating verbally, we get into a lot of local habits we pick up because of how we are taught to speak. Try teaching them to your child who is dyslexic and they will look at you as if you have 2 heads! Don't even get me started on cliches.

I have found that there are two modes of thinking: some of us are predominantly picture thinkers (dyslexics fall into this category) and some of us are predominantly word thinkers (think with the thought and sound of words). We all do both, but it is how we specialize that counts.

And I have found it fascinating, that on this forum, with my predominately word oriented thinking, I have to try and think in pictures to try to get across my point of intention sometimes, when all I have is this keyboard to do that with.

We will, none of us, find anyone's intentions behind this type of communication (unless you are really psychic and can just pick that up). And all communication has intention behind it.

One would hope, that on this forum, we all have the same basic intention - that of expanding our own lives with new knowledge that someone else has stumbled upon, or was born with, that can enrich our own lives because they were kind enough to help us out along the way, or encourage us when we are trying out something new, stepping outside the box of our lives into the uncharted (at least for ourselves).

That is the fun of this forum, for me anyway.

It's too early to be awake yet.....

There are concrete things and there are abstract things.

It is easy to get one's meaning across when talking about concrete things: a kettle is a kettle.

It is much more difficult to discuss abstract things such as emotions, spirituality, etc. because they can't be felt, seen, heard, smelled or tasted. We have to use metaphor. The closest we can describe unconditional love is the love of a mother for her child. We have to use what we know as frame of reference. I wonder if what I have said is clear.

Language has always had my interest. A large part of the job I held consisted of translating documents from Dutch into English. It was always a challenge to do it clearly as well as conveying the spirit in which reports, articles etc were written. It was fun and I loved doing it.

Originally Posted by Meadows

Might I point out the communication through straightforward questions above...in case you missed it

It's a method of communication that enables others to share their own perceptions...that often leads to further questions. When combined with patience and listening skills, it really is a fabulous way of getting to know people. Hopefully it will become the in thing and everyone'll be doing it

Thankyou for sharing your reply. I have to say, I don't manage to read very long pieces (as 'yourspace' items tend to be) but I will have a look. I would enjoy seeing you grow and expand the views you hold..so I wish you well with your journey x

*smile* Good morning (its morning where I am at - and I haven't looked at any other thread yet, hopefully 'll have time, if not this evening when I get home)! Agreed, questions are another way. I've never been that good at asking questions honestly, a skill I probably need to work on, instead I just listen to what it is someone wants to share and go from there. But - there are always things I need to work on in my communication. I do appreciate the differences in how people communicate.

I tend to write a lot - so we'll see how many of my posts you'll get through. I'm long winded, but I am trying to work on that also.

Growth is wonderful- and yes, that is what I am about.

Originally Posted by dreamt

This is a really great question. I don't know what the answer is... Personally I tend to not discuss my spiritual beliefs with others because it's one of those areas I would find pretty much impossible to put into words. I am not sure how I'd feel anymore about even doing so - in a discussion I mean. There are other ways people express such as in various art forms, and words can be part of that kind of expression, or the main part if it's something lyrical.

I do very much value communication though and honest discussion, and as this is a spiritual forum I feel it should be fairly ok to be open about sharing some things that I wouldn't elsewhere - I am here to learn and grow spiritually. Ironically though, this does not seem to include discussing my spiritual beliefs directly. At least for now and the past x amount of years that's how it's been. That could change sometime though and maybe the beliefs could also change, although I don't imagine that they would that much... anything's possible though :)

Thank you for responding and sharing your views. I understand the reluctance to communicate directly about personal values and beliefs that are difficult to communicate to others in the first place. When I first woke up it is all I could talk about - and I talked it to death over seven years - and then I brought it in for many years. And that was also necessary, through not talking about it with others I allowed silence for myself to talk clearly to me. But, my growth will never be complete and it seems its time to talk again - because as you said the ironic part is sometimes our growth finds that necessary.

Originally Posted by nameless

I agree with the difficulty of this type of communication - without *seeing* the person that is typing up the words and trying to communicate in this fashion as best they can their intention, clues are missed out on, because we speak in person with one another through so many other forms of communication besides words, that when you only have words to communicate but no body language, it is more difficult to pick up on the one doing the communicating's intentions.

And so sometimes the intention behind the words gets losted, or misplaced, and the flavor of the communication is lacking something.

But it's all we got :) so we try our best to get across that which we are trying to relate.

One would hope, that on this forum, we all have the same basic intention - that of expanding our own lives with new knowledge that someone else has stumbled upon, or was born with, that can enrich our own lives because they were kind enough to help us out along the way, or encourage us when we are trying out something new, stepping outside the box of our lives into the uncharted (at least for ourselves).

Yes! The last time I was active on an internet forum where we discussed our perceptions of our own lessons, spirit, etc. - I thought the wonder and difficulty of online interaction is that we are blind in so many ways to all of the subtle cues we learn to pick up on in face to face interaction. In a way I think that adds some intensity to the energetic interaction... a theory I do not have time to expand on in this moment (soon to head out the door to my first day of my last quarter of University, I was (am) an older student).

And yes, one of the reasons I joined here, and now one of the reasons myself nudged me to come back here is the intent of this place is to grow - to share in our differences and hopefully come to a better understanding of ourselves and the world around us and our path through and in it. At least that is the vibe I got. *smiles*

I love what you said about language - but again, not enough time to fully respond. Thank you for taking the time to respond!

Originally Posted by Gem

I think we hear the same old stuff over and over again and what once sounded kinda deep becomes like silly pop song to us, but when people speak in a really meaningful way, it just rings with sincerity, and mostly it doesn't repeat the catch phrases of spiritual pop culture

I dig that. I actually cringe every time I use the word "spiritual" or "spirituality" to describe myself. It seems redundant and far too overused to me. Even the truth sounds silly when you say it too often Kind of like when you say a word out loud 10, 20 times - it begins to lose its meaning. Also one of the reasons why I didn't talk about this stuff for so long.

Thanks for your input!

Originally Posted by Bluegreen

There are concrete things and there are abstract things.

It is easy to get one's meaning across when talking about concrete things: a kettle is a kettle.

It is much more difficult to discuss abstract things such as emotions, spirituality, etc. because they can't be felt, seen, heard, smelled or tasted. We have to use metaphor. The closest we can describe unconditional love is the love of a mother for her child. We have to use what we know as frame of reference. I wonder if what I have said is clear.

Language has always had my interest. A large part of the job I held consisted of translating documents from Dutch into English. It was always a challenge to do it clearly as well as conveying the spirit in which reports, articles etc were written. It was fun and I loved doing it

Yes, metaphor. I'm a bit of a poet myself and my poetry took on whole new dimensions when my perception shifted and my sight - became larger. I stand in awe of my friends who are able to express themselves through visual art. Symbols hold so much within them that speaks to the subtler parts of myself. Words are a but more tricky - and yet more direct. Its like with any tool - there are benefits and challenges.

Language is a love of mine as well.

Which leads me to say one last thing - by discussing the limitations of language I am not saying throw the baby out with the bath water - I love language, I love communicating, its an innate trait of mine and a big part of my 36 years here - which is why I like to discuss where it sometimes needs some work. By acknowledging the limitations of something I am not devaluing it.

Thank you for all of your replies, I really appreciate it! Have a beautiful whatever time of the day it is wherever you are at! Thank you for being a part of my communication and therefore my growth.

Words, words, words. I've been thinking about them and thinking.. now that I have been here for a while and am a little more "known" and have had more interactions I find myself returning to this subject.

Language is important - the way words are applied is also important - ensuring that when we use words that they are understood in a similar way by both parties (or more, as it may be) can seem to be a no-brainer, but it really isn't.

I've realized lately that it isn't just spiritual terms either, its terms that we take for granted as being understood and agreed upon, that can also make communication difficult.

If we don't have a word for something, does that mean it doesn't exist? Well, no, it just means we haven't found a way to describe it to ourselves and others. Do we create new words to describe something new to our experience? Yes we can and I am starting to think should, make up words after all how did language begin in the 1st place?

Or, can we expand out vocabulary, go looking for words that more accurately describe our experience?

If two people disagree on the meaning of a word - is it possible to expand the definition of that word to include both meanings?

Just thoughts running through my mind. I'm very open to anyone's thoughts on this as I find it to be an ongoing learning curve - how to understand the words I use, how to understand the words others use, how to ensure we are meaning the same thing by the usage of a word, and the power words have to describe what exists inside and outside of ourselves.

Originally Posted by VesicaPhoenix11

You know that's funny you ask that. As I was doing the dishes I thought I'd start myself a thread in YourSpace explaining what my intent is in being here - at SF - at all. So I'll address that there in more detail.

I also do not think there is a "right" way of communicating, I misspoke - I do strive to communicate in a way that encourages a sharing of perceptions so I can learn. Simply put my intention is to learn and to grow and to see the world and the people in it more clearly than I did before. There are always blindspots in my perception by seeing how others perceive I'm not so blind.

By discussing the ways in which language is limiting I was hoping to understand more about how the people here view communication and language. Since that is what we are doing here. Communicating in language. I don't like to assume I know what other people are saying or that I understand their intent. Or the way they look at things. That takes bringing up concepts and talking about them. Hence why I brought this thread up. To begin to understand. And who knows, maybe be understood. If that works, cool. If not, also okay.

Actually, I have been thinking about this issue for several days....Communicating/debating/discussing using the written word is not only limiting, but often sends the wrong message....Seeing a person in a lively, heated discussion with arms flailing, sarcasm laced with laughter, points made with fingers is quite different than seeing the same debate in written communication....it very often doesn't come out as you meant it to......

[Papa Bear]

Hi Vesica,

Originally Posted by VesicaPhoenix11

If we don't have a word for something, does that mean it doesn't exist? Well, no, it just means we haven't found a way to describe it to ourselves and others. Do we create new words to describe something new to our experience? Yes we can and I am starting to think should, make up words after all how did language begin in the 1st place?

I have referred to my own experience of what you ask, as abridging and adapting. It resulted from experiences which in essence were `formless`. As the instinct to formulate description`s or interpretations of associations are natural to the psychology of human nature, any reasoning to share such required a reflection. This then introduced a need of a means of adapting and abridging formless interconnectivity in experiential awareness, into words of expression.

Or, can we expand out vocabulary, go looking for words that more accurately describe our experience?

Words are expressions of our creation, as our experiences create them, giving them meaning. Consider God, before the word was formed, and consider what the word God conveys. So if we can reflect a potential source to everything, a potential reason for everything, in three letters…God, then can there be any experience beyond our capacity to abridge and adapt an expression for it, in human understanding?

For example, if I expressed an awareness of an all pervading universal formless source medium, the Quintessence or fifth element, an ether abridging and adapting every aspect of interconnectivity between everything everywhere, here and there, materially and Spiritually.
In doing such I may have reflected with words others have used before me, but I used them to give both substance and reason, to something formless and my awareness of it. That I believe is adapting and abridging my experience in formlessness, into a subtle and ethereal nature of language.

And as the nature of that subtle ethereal influence, `sources` most surface experience in human nature, in currents and flows of natural cause and effect in shared interconnectivity. I often perceive considerations of the reflective material of surface human experiences, from that ethereal source cause and effect. This nature then limits the vocabulary I may use to reflect such, not within my vocabulary, but within its understanding when reflected by others.

This rather than deterring my expressions, enlivens my willingness to express in my own vocabulary. For though I accept and understand the nuances of creating a means of communication another may understand, I relish the opportunity to challenge how hard another is prepared to try to understand, something that may stretch their own considerations.

So it is my experience that words have more substance than we give them credit for. As detaching their reflective abilities from our experience, self restricts our freedom to use them more astutely. For the nature of shared communication has many levels of connection, so why would the words we select or create to express our feeling/thoughts, our sensitivities or experiential awareness, be any less natural in their means of sharing.

Greetings Papa Bear! *waves*

Originally Posted by Papa Bear

I have referred to my own experience of what you ask, as abridging and adapting. -- It resulted from experiences which in essence were `formless`. -- This then introduced a need of a means of adapting and abridging formless interconnectivity in experiential awareness, into words of expression.

I relate to this and perhaps it is where my fascination and desire to discuss the many ways in which language is applied in communication; to explore its boundaries, to go beyond, to stretch & shape language, in an attempt to describe that which is indescribable. For now.. change is occurring.

Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Words are expressions of our creation, as our experiences create them, giving them meaning. -- For example, if I expressed an awareness of an all pervading universal formless source medium, the Quintessence or fifth element, an ether abridging and adapting -- I may have reflected with words others have used before me, but I used them to give both substance and reason, to something formless and my awareness of it. That I believe is adapting and abridging my experience in formlessness, into a subtle and ethereal nature of language.

This nature then limits the vocabulary I may use to reflect such, not within my vocabulary, but within its understanding when reflected by others.

I include others in my explorations of language because, as you say while I can very well create my own language with which I conduct my conversation with the many aspects of my self... language is a means of communication, which hopefully leads to mutual understanding and an expansion of individual perception, so understanding how others perceive and apply it as such is essential, for me...

I posted this elsewhere but it seems fitting here to outline one reason I am so interested in language... something I wrote a few years ago describing an experience I had as a rural country girl with a very limited view of the world externally - internally, well......

Originally Posted by Vesica Prose

My first moment of conscious awakening I can recall happened one late night when I was 15, carousing in a park after hours with friends I wandered off on my own to the lake's edge. Leaving my companions to their own devices I chose to sit on the midnight shore. I recall the feel of sand beneath me, each grain etching its voice on my skin. The waters of the lake tickling my toes with subdued tranquility. The sky dusted with diamond mists, darkening in its curve to greet the mountain range to the west. My senses were more than merely captivated by my surroundings, they were enmeshed within them. As I rested in stillness, my mind opened as an intuitive mantra rose from the nexus found between I and my surroundings.

"This is where the earth, sky, and sea all met me."

Sang the mantra in spiral soliloquies with a voice from within, yet was not my own. Seductive in its simplicity, each word buoyant with intent - it was an epiphany, a felt sense of immediate experience, a revelation expanding an awareness of the interconnectedness of my being with the elements around me. An awakening that eluded my vocabulary in any attempt to describe the sensations intrinsic to the experience. An awakening which initiated my desire to seek words with which to impart the eternal I glimpsed that night. A perception shift in my reality which woke the hunter from her slumber and sent her in pursuit of wyld words to feed the storyteller. So someday I might speak the story that is mine to share.

One of my reasons for asking should we expand our vocabulary is when I had that experience words like "mantra" did not yet exist for me, yet I had an intuitive mantra make itself known to me the best I could describe it as was a one line poem... I had to go out and find the word mantra, I'm still looking for words.... language evolves as a reflection of those who wield it...

Originally Posted by Papa Bear

This rather than deterring my expressions, enlivens my willingness to express in my own vocabulary. -- I relish the opportunity to challenge how hard another is prepared to try to understand, something that may stretch their own considerations.

I flip flop on this.. as I often come in to contact with people who do not view language in the same way as I nor possess a vocabulary similar to my own, but if I speak with them I would like them to understand what it is I am saying, just as I would like to understand them.. but I also see the value of your view as well, it depends on who I am speaking with and what we are speaking of...

Originally Posted by Papa Bear

So it is my experience that words have more substance than we give them credit for.-- For the nature of shared communication has many levels of connection, so why would the words we select or create to express our feeling/thoughts, our sensitivities or experiential awareness, be any less natural in their means of sharing.

In the beginning was the word... while not a Christian I respect and learn from all creation stories and there is substance to words, "words have power" is a saying I heard once long ago that stuck with me. The ways in which language is used by an individual reflects a personal perception & reality, when applied to communication it reflects a shared reality.... not just reflects but also is a material for its creation. In exploring its boundaries we explore the edges of our selves and our shared reality... I believe that to be a worthy endeavor.

Thank you for your response Papa Bear, I enjoy reflecting upon your words and the way in which they cause me to slow down and pause in order to comprehend. For wordy, quick, mercurial folk like myself... its a good lesson.

Originally Posted by Juanita

Communicating/debating/discussing using the written word is not only limiting, but often sends the wrong message....Seeing a person in a lively, heated discussion with arms flailing, sarcasm laced with laughter, points made with fingers is quite different than seeing the same debate in written communication....it very often doesn't come out as you meant it to......

*nods* Yes, forum language is a horse of a completely new color... in verbal communication we can depend on our nonverbal signals to underlie our words and give them another layer of meaning. In the typed word on the page there are so many ways in which they can be misinterpreted, the intent of our words completely lost in the glare of the screen and the reflection of someone we're never seen.

One of the main reasons I brought this subject up during my first week really actively participating here is I was active on another forum years ago where similar subjects were discussed at great length and this came up - it came up quite a lot due to intentional and unintentional misunderstandings. I thought to cut through all of that and to open up a place to discuss the ways in which language is limited; or at least to know I had attempted to with forethought, learning from my past experience and all. *grin* Sometimes its not enough to just communicate, we must also discuss how we communicate and the ways in which we do so, language, to ensure real communication is occurring. Otherwise we all may as well be sitting in rooms separately talking to ourself out loud.. which is okay as well, just a perspective. *smile*

[Papa Bear]

Hi Vesica! *waves*

Originally Posted by VesicaPhoenix11

"This is where the earth, sky, and sea all met me."

Sang the mantra in spiral soliloquies with a voice from within, yet was not my own. Seductive in its simplicity, each word buoyant with intent - it was an epiphany, a felt sense of immediate experience, a revelation expanding an awareness of the interconnectedness of my being with the elements around me. An awakening that eluded my vocabulary in any attempt to describe the sensations intrinsic to the experience. An awakening which initiated my desire to seek words with which to impart the eternal I glimpsed that night. A perception shift in my reality which woke the hunter from her slumber and sent her in pursuit of wyld words to feed the storyteller. So someday I might speak the story that is mine to share.

The interactive dance of nature flows in many rhymes and rhythms, in currents to many to put word to. But her song is reflected in your expression, which could only come from within a natural embrace with sameness in difference.

While the `mantra` reflects how we may realize connectivity with currents without form, but more beautiful than what we perceive their manifest condition to be, because of a `word`, earth, sky, sea, vibrating within our own rhyme and rhythm. It surprises me not, that your inner vocabulary reflects its influence on your expressed vocabulary, as both display a nature of sensitivity beyond the words used.

My own experience when reaching in, through the development of Spiritual self-healing, evolved an energy flow understanding which had no words to express meaning. But then I found the `chakra` in word and system, to express what I understood before I had the words. And realized that for every discovery in subtle insight I may yet flow or harmonize with, there have been many, many, before me, who have already `created` the word, from within the same currents and flows of interconnectivity. So with respect and humility, I use their expressions to reflect my own experiential awareness, in honour of those who gifted me with their words. Yet still…” language evolves as a reflection of those who wield it...”

I flip flop on this.. as I often come in to contact with people who do not view language in the same way as I nor possess a vocabulary similar to my own, but if I speak with them I would like them to understand what it is I am saying, just as I would like to understand them..

We are the same, but in this time in this place I have granted myself a freedom in expression, contrary to a lifetime of sharing your own reflection. It is a self luxury I have gifted myself, for in doing so I seek to extend my own understanding of my own limitations in expression, and to seek in trial or error, to give form to formlessness, in words.

The ways in which language is used by an individual reflects a personal perception & reality, when applied to communication it reflects a shared reality.... not just reflects but also is a material for its creation. In exploring its boundaries we explore the edges of our selves and our shared reality... I believe that to be a worthy endeavor.

An endeavour that carries its participants from the conventionality of tradition, in meaning, use or rationality and invites the `Spirit` to express in manifest words, is one I share.

When I was younger, I remember being rather fond of the word `vibration` until I shared a discussion with two physicists, who were discussing string theory. And when I apologized and highlighted the restrictions in generality the word vibration brought to my vocabulary, one of them said, “try, `resonance`, it is more precise to what produces it”. I then discovered in research, that everything produces resonance waves/flows in reflection of its presence. Like an invisible pebble entering a pool, the ripples identify its presence, and there are many pools and many pebbles formless to human perception, and I had a `word` to identify a presence in formlessness.

I enjoy reflecting upon your words and the way in which they cause me to slow down and pause in order to comprehend. For wordy, quick, mercurial folk like myself... its a good lesson.

As I also enjoy gliding within your most eloquent flows in expression and enquiry, for they reflect from a pioneering Spirit.