The Three Kayas

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think it's a common communication to acknowledge that you missed the humourous context of my post and misunderstood what I said. This reply seems unusual.

Unusual will become usual, all is in constant flux ...

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

If you were in discussion you'd comment on the points I make, and you wouldn't exert power by discrediting me personally so as to invalidate what I say.


The tact is patterned. It first requires establishing a lower position (by asserting I have issues to discredit what I say). Then the straw man is used to falsely imply that I ever said 'right view' is what I want it to be (which I never even remotely inferred), to establish wrongness so as to position righteousness. It is obvious that so far you have commented on my deficient psychological state, and implied I said or I think something I didn't think or say. Recent readers who weren't around to hear what I actually said in the full context would be misled by all this. You see how this reflects on understanding the notion of 'right' at the level of actualisation?




Straw man. What I say and what you say I say are not the same thing. Quoting supposedly holy text is fine, great and helpful, and I advocate practice and philosophy together, but I also comment on using authoritative text to prove oneself right. What I was commenting on was intent, not the text in itself.




It just depends on the intent, but if people point out that you've misread or express a somewhat broader perspective, that's just the discussion of topic, but when they deride you by asserting your psychological deficiencies, issues and so forth, and misrepresenting what you say, not as an isolated event, but as a tendency, that's a clear indicator of a positioning strategy, which is a power trip.





No. And there's nothing in my behaviours to indicate it.






I understand the implication, but I didn't say anything like that. It's a straw man.






That's what I talk about pretty much consistently, and I try to convey some fundamental aspects of what is termed 'right meditation'. I try to listen more carefully to what other people say so can I understand what they actually say, the context of their meaning, and not misrepresent them in any way. It's just a practice of right speech, not a perfection, but as far as I'm able.

Gem,

Please read this again and see where you are projecting onto others your own issues.

Exerting Power? That is really only in your head.

Straw man. What I say and what you say I say are not the same thing. Quoting supposedly holy text is fine, great and helpful, and I advocate practice and philosophy together, but I also comment on using authoritative text to prove oneself right. What I was commenting on was intent, not the text in itself.

Can you show me a quote from you where you have advocated quoting from "supposedly holy text is fine, great and helpful"? Because you have been saying even within this post that doing so is about power. Also, I can't really recall too many quotes from holy texts from you to indicate that is your position. I can't remember any to be honest.

You can't know someone's intent. It is a projection from within yourself.

Try the Dharma Contemplation and you will see, it is all you projecting your own issues and fears onto others. To dismiss them...

Also, the logical way to learn within a discussion is to quote from authoritive, learned, respected teachers on the topics when there is a debate. If you don't and just well I thing it is this and someone else is no, I think it is this. It is like dumb and dumber talking to each other.

Yes, you learn from those who have more knowledge and experience than you. You don't project your issues on why they are sharing onto them. That is nothing more than your own issues coming out.

It just depends on the intent, but if people point out that you've misread or express a somewhat broader perspective, that's just the discussion of topic, but when they deride you by asserting your psychological deficiencies, issues and so forth, and misrepresenting what you say, not as an isolated event, but as a tendency, that's a clear indicator of a positioning strategy, which is a power trip.

Gem, you have a history of talking about power, authority figure issues and how it is all about control and power.

If you will notice, the topic has been about texts and views on the teachings. Who brought up peoples intent? Who brought up issues with Power?

You are doing what you accuse others of.

One way to end a discussion is to accuse others of ill intent, of wanting authority, control and power by sharing teachings or god forbid being a teacher. Unless of course it is you doing the teaching.. right?

That's what I talk about pretty much consistently, and I try to convey some fundamental aspects of what is termed 'right meditation'. I try to listen more carefully to what other people say so can I understand what they actually say, the context of their meaning, and not misrepresent them in any way. It's just a practice of right speech, not a perfection, but as far as I'm able

Right meditation?

It is right to you, to your meaning, to your understanding but that doesn't make it right for others. Saying it is 'right meditation' shows some ego especially from someone who has said they have no experience in jhanas in the Buddhist section.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

There you go again with your POWER and AUTHORITY issues.

Doesn't everyone who posts ideas do this? Every post is an assertion of belief, opinion, or truth. This is what I think. This is what I believe. This is what is true. Here is this famous religious or spiritual authority who says it. So it is true. Or, the heck with religious authorities, here is what I say is true.

Every post is a person asserting (power) an idea they (authority) have in that moment.

But the question I would ask is, can we have no opinions, beliefs, or truths in the moment? So that there is nothing to assert or defend?

The now is like a new page in a coloring book. We color it as we wish. We are the creators of our experience of what is. To a degree, we can alter what is as well. Not in all ways obviously as karma plays a role.

What if Buddha's main message was, we don't have to color the new page in the coloring book at all. We can leave it as it is. Leave everything in it's original state before we mess around with it, before we color it according to our ideas and beliefs and thoughts.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Doesn't everyone who posts ideas do this? Every post is an assertion of belief, opinion, or truth. This is what I think. This is what I believe. This is what is true. Here is this famous religious or spiritual authority who says it. So it is true. Or, the heck with religious authorities, here is what I say is true.

Every post is a person asserting (power) an idea they (authority) have in that moment.

But the question I would ask is, can we have no opinions, beliefs, or truths in the moment? So that there is nothing to assert or defend?

The now is like a new page in a coloring book. We color it as we wish. We are the creators of our experience of what is. To a degree, we can alter what is as well. Not in all ways obviously as karma plays a role.

What if Buddha's main message was, we don't have to color the new page in the coloring book at all. We can leave it as it is. Leave everything in it's original state before we mess around with it, before we color it according to our ideas and beliefs and thoughts.

Asserting of power or assuming that is what someone is doing is an internal issue.

Your

But the question I would ask is, can we have no opinions, beliefs, or truths in the moment? So that there is nothing to assert or defend?

is about having clarity and not getting caught up in issues and fears. The Buddha shared many opinions, beliefs and truths as did Jesus who talked about being in the present moment.

What if Buddha's main message was, we don't have to color the new page in the coloring book at all. We can leave it as it is. Leave everything in it's original state before we mess around with it, before we color it according to our ideas and beliefs and thoughts

Again, refer to Right View which is one of the first teachings of the Buddha. Having the wrong view, the wrong understanding can do a lot of harm or just waste a lot of time.

What is interesting is the use of the word Authority in the discussion.

1.the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.

"he had absolute authority over his subordinates" ·
[more]

synonyms: power · jurisdiction · command · control · mastery ·
[more]


•the right to act in a specified way, delegated from one person or organization to another.

"military forces have the legal authority to arrest drug traffickers"


synonyms: authorization · right · power · mandate ·
[more]


•official permission; sanction.

"the money was spent without congressional authority"


synonyms: authorization · permission · consent · leave

Now that just seems bad doesn't it? Aligns to everyone's fears and helps to prove the point that authority is bad.

Now here is the thing in spirituality they don't use the term authority. They use the term authoritative.

1.able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable.

"clear, authoritative information and advice" ·
[more]

synonyms: reliable · dependable · trustworthy · good · sound ·
[more]


•(of a text) considered to be the best of its kind and unlikely to be improved upon.

"the authoritative study of mollusks"


synonyms: definitive · most reliable · best · most scholarly

Do you notice the difference?

One is about power the other is about trust, reliable, best of it's kind.

When you learn about anything, do you already think you know it all, understand it all or to you go to Authoritative texts and figures to learn from them? Like in school or do you accuse them of asserting power because they have studied the subject longer than you have and are trying to help you learn it?

[sky]

Would Buddhist Monks/Nuns who sometimes spend their whole lives translating Suttas/Sutras so that they are accessible to the whole world regardless of what language you speak do it for power or to show their authority.

Would they organize Sanghas, Meditation Classes, give talks at local Schools or Community Centres, visit the sick and dying in Hospitals/Hospices just to show that they have power and authority over others.

No...... It's a labour of love for most of them, they care about their fellow human beings and want to share Buddha's Teachings to those who choose to listen and want to learn, understand and take comfort in.

Anyone who thinks they are doing it to assert power or authority is deluded.. and shouldn't be participating in a Thread which is about Buddhism.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Asserting of power or assuming that is what someone is doing is an internal issue.

Your is about having clarity and not getting caught up in issues and fears. The Buddha shared many opinions, beliefs and truths as did Jesus who talked about being in the present moment.



Again, refer to Right View which is one of the first teachings of the Buddha. Having the wrong view, the wrong understanding can do a lot of harm or just waste a lot of time.

What is interesting is the use of the word Authority in the discussion.




Now that just seems bad doesn't it? Aligns to everyone's fears and helps to prove the point that authority is bad.

Now here is the thing in spirituality they don't use the term authority. They use the term authoritative.



Do you notice the difference?

One is about power the other is about trust, reliable, best of it's kind.

When you learn about anything, do you already think you know it all, understand it all or to you go to Authoritative texts and figures to learn from them? Like in school or do you accuse them of asserting power because they have studied the subject longer than you have and are trying to help you learn it?

Great post

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Would Buddhist Monks/Nuns who sometimes spend their whole lives translating Suttas/Sutras so that they are accessible to the whole world regardless of what language you speak do it for power or to show their authority.

Would they organize Sanghas, Meditation Classes, give talks at local Schools or Community Centres, visit the sick and dying in Hospitals/Hospices just to show that they have power and authority over others.

No...... It's a labour of love for most of them, they care about their fellow human beings and want to share Buddha's Teachings to those who choose to listen and want to learn, understand and take comfort in.

Anyone who thinks they are doing it to assert power or authority is deluded.. and shouldn't be participating in a Thread which is about Buddhism.

I agree and very well said.

[Rain95]

Monks and Nuns give up their free will in their vows so they don't really have "authority" in that way. They live according to the rules for the monks and nuns.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Didn't you post awhile back how you were taught by nuns and you didn't like how they treated you?

Are you now changing your mind and stating all nuns never abuse their authority?

Google nuns and abuse sometime.
https://www.newsweek.com/nuns-abuse-...arrests-919904

There are always a few bad apples. It doesn't mean you throw out the entire batch because of it.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Didn't you post awhile back how you were taught by nuns and you didn't like how they treated you?

Are you now changing your mind and stating all nuns never abuse their authority?

Google nuns and abuse sometime.
https://www.newsweek.com/nuns-abuse-...arrests-919904

No idea what you are talking about Rain, if you can show me where or when I posted this it would help...

If you re-read my Post I never used the word ABUSE.... Also I am talking about BUDDHISM not Christianity... also I did say MOST not all. Mybe taking time to read properly would help