The Three Kayas

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

A new Zen koan.

I am seeking and desiring and wanting to become someone that does not seek or desire or want. What practice should I do?

' Rainism '

[Rain95]

A person is not called wise because he talks and talks again; but if he is peaceful then he is in truth called wise. Buddha

Stop, stop. Do not speak. The ultimate truth is not even to think. Buddha

Like a fine flower, beautiful to look at but without scent, fine words are fruitless in a person who does not act. Buddha

However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? Buddha

Those who are free of thoughts surely find peace. Buddha

Live purely. Be quiet. Like the moon, come out from behind the clouds! Buddha

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

A person is not called wise because he talks and talks again; but if he is peaceful then he is in truth called wise. Buddha

Stop, stop. Do not speak. The ultimate truth is not even to think. Buddha

Like a fine flower, beautiful to look at but without scent, fine words are fruitless in a person who does not act. Buddha

However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? Buddha

Those who are free of thoughts surely find peace. Buddha

Live purely. Be quiet. Like the moon, come out from behind the clouds! Buddha

The last three quotes are FAKE....

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

The truth of that depends on what you mean by that word "practices."

Krishnamurti, and Buddha, did not do things to become something.

I guess in K's case, he was groomed from an early age to fulfill Besant's 'world teacher' imaginings, but "The Truth is Pathless Land" defined what he stood for himself. Legend has it that Buddha sought teaching from at least a few before he found the 'middle way'.

They were not doing things, practices, to achieve something. That is egotism and dualistic. What they did is to be in a non-conceptual state. That was their practice. The "practice" was not a means to an end, their practice was the means and the end, the goal and the realization of that goal. There was no seeking, no desire to become something, no method or practice to try to get somewhere other than where one was.

Yes, indeed. As Buddha put it, "'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" That snippet is better understood in the broader context here.

But one could see or notice if one was in a thought conceptual identified state, and this seeing would then bring about the other. So the practice was to see more and more the truth of what was present and in this seeing change what one was, change what ones experience was. This seeing and new way of experiencing was the practice.

The hyperlinked text also covers some fundamentals of Buddhist practice.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by sky123

The last three quotes are FAKE....

According to Buddha, all quotes are basically "fake" as they are conceptual, mental symbols, words, mental images, if ones attention is on the conceptual, they are in delusion according to Buddha. Not in the actual real world. Not experiencing directly.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

According to Buddha, all quotes are basically "fake" as they are conceptual, mental symbols, words, mental images, if ones attention is on the conceptual, they are in delusion according to Buddha. Not in the actual real world. Not experiencing directly.

According to Rainism all quotes are basically ' fake '....

[Rain95]

So to follow Buddha's teachings, and not just talk about them or interpret them in egotistical ways for egotistical purposes, one drops all identification with the conceptual. Each moment is clear, not based on thought or thinking, as all that is discarded. Each moment is new in all ways. As all references to the past are dropped. Then the best of all, all interpretation is dropped and the interpreter. One doesn't have to listen to that voice anymore. The "talking" in ones head.

There are many sources or triggers for that voice, some internal and some external. They are all there to distract us from the actual now as it is. They compete to get our attention. So that we focus on them. The reason is pretty simple. The earthly incarnations purpose is to raise ones awareness. A higher attention and awareness is necessary to remove ones gaze from the conceptual, from thought and thinking, from the verbal. From the talking, the thoughts, whether they are silent in written form or heard through the ears. Whether their source originated from another or from oneself.

The purpose of these things is to allow one to rise above them. As rising above them requires a higher awareness and state of being. A willingness to let go of them and to let go of the self that would claim them as it's own. Ultimately, I am creating the experience of now by what I am focusing on. The process is usually passive and automatic. One is not self aware, so one is thought focused, and one does not know this focusing and experience is wholly optional. But that's why teachers like Buddha come along. To point out to those who are ready and interested that a different way of being is available.

Most will not be interested. They will want to continue to distract themselves though conflict, though aggressiveness. But the now free from the conceptual, free from the false self, has no conflict. There are chirping birds about, but they experience themselves as they are. For me to experience their state of being I have to be willing. I have to agree to it. I have to focus on my thoughts and thinking. I have to identify with it.

If I am self aware, aware of the now as it is, not paying attention to the conceptual or the created, the interpretation or the interpreter, there is only peace and an awareness of the mystery and divinity and eternity of the now as it is.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, indeed. As Buddha put it, "'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"

Yes I would say one drops the self, one does not try to achieve something for the self. "Selfless" is another term not really understood. The awareness, which is what I am, can be identified with all of the normal things that make up the "self", the conditioned "person," the "ego" and so become all that in a sense. So selflessness is basically me, awareness, not identifying with, not paying attention to, not making phenomenal, the word based interpretation of now. The conceptual creation the brain makes moment to moment. Awareness lets all that go moment to moment thus creating a new unfiltered and unconditioned experience of now as it is.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Rain95

So to follow Buddha's teachings, and not just talk about them or interpret them in egotistical ways for egotistical purposes, one drops all identification with the conceptual. Each moment is clear, not based on thought or thinking, as all that is discarded. Each moment is new in all ways. As all references to the past are dropped. Then the best of all, all interpretation is dropped and the interpreter. One doesn't have to listen to that voice anymore. The "talking" in ones head.

Yet – talking or not-talking in one’s head happens on the same awareness ground, or ‘assemblage point of awareness’, so the not-talking practice in itself can run a risk of attaining a ‘blank wall Samadhi’.

I think Buddhism is so compassionate that they have got teachings for everyone and these teachings vary quite a lot depending where ‘the students are at’ or their level of ‘growth’, so some of the teachings can even seem contradictory.
So the task of the student, I think, is to recognize one’s own ‘level’ by the way some of the teachings reflect one’s understanding, so that the situation can become workable.

If one comes from a Shamanic background, the Buddhist teachings that reflect our experiences are found in (Tibetan and Hindu) Vajrayana/Tantra – as there is some recognizable overlap or similarities or parallels found there.
Shamanism (even Aboriginal spirituality imo.) is big on ‘direct inner knowing’ – there is the mythology or the ‘dreamtime stories’, but they don’t make much sense until they are realized through experiences and only then will the jigsaw pieces come together, but then you don’t really talk about those realizations, they are kept as an ‘open secret’ - so we are like flying on the ‘wing of intuition’ most of the time.
So – here is where Vajrayana/Tantra comes in handy. Buddhists and Hindus do explain things!
They complement Shamanism, because now you have got two wings, intuition and knowledge to validate your ‘experiences’ with.

Earlier on I quoted:

The energy body is a bridge between our ordinary, solid and apparently separate humanness and infinite awareness.

Yet the objects of surface mind – behaviours, words and thoughts – arise out of and express a more subtle level of reality, the sambhogakaya – where we function as a dynamic field of energy.

If you come from a shamanic background, you don’t think of your body-mind as self – it is just the outer expression, outer shell - your energy body or your energy-field is your ‘true self’, “the shadow soul” - your personal ‘guardian spirit’.

Attention on the 3 gates, the ….
stillness of body – stillness of being
silence of speech – silence of being
spaciousness of mind – spaciousness of being

…. Is very good, but it is a long blooming way to go about things. Just regard the body-mind as an empty (sphere), open it up and it becomes open, receptive, neutral space. It becomes a perfectly still 'bowl of water’. So we are already ‘pure’ vessels or instruments as we are.

In Mahayana, we learn to become kind to our neighbours (or so I’ve been told), but in Vajrayana all this 'goodness-practice' of the body-mind-as-self becomes so contrived, mechanical, robot-like mode of behaviour, a bit narcissistic too to be honest ……
I had quoted this before:

The fundamental characteristic of true compassion is pure and fearless openness without territorial limitations. There is no need to be loving and kind to one’s neighbours, no need to speak pleasantly to people and put on a pretty smile. This little game does not apply. In fact it is embarrassing. Real openness exists on a much larger scale, a revolutionary large and open scale, a universal scale. Compassion means for you to be as adult as you are, while still maintaining a childlike quality. In the Buddhist teachings the symbol for compassion, as I have already said, is one moon shining in the sky while its image is reflected in one hundred bowls of water. The moon does not demand, “If you open to me, I will do you a favour and shine on you.” The moon just shines.
The point is not to want to benefit anyone or make them happy. There is no audience involved, no “me” and “them.” It is a matter of an open gift, complete generosity without the relative notions of giving and receiving. That is the basic openness of compassion: opening without demand. Simply be what you are.
Be the master of the situation. If you will just “be,” then life flows around and through you. This will lead you into working and communicating with someone, which of course demands tremendous warmth and openness.

" ~~~ Chogyam Trungpa, 1974

“Within that ‘water bowl’ - a Vajrayana Buddhist? practitioner visualizes in his/her receptive inner mind/emptiness/space the bright moon - his/her original mind – serene and pure like the full moon, whose rays pervade all space without discrimination”.

Not sure, but I think this corresponds to the Causal Chakra opening (?) where the Causal Full Moon spontaneously appears.
If you are Christian, you might see a White Dove or something, if you are a Tibetan Buddhist you’ll see Mahavairochana emerging or if you are Shamanic – you’ll see Hiimori – a Winged White Horse (looking for a rider, a shamanic symbol Tibetans turned into to mean "Windhorse", Lungta:), the most immaculate pure awareness principle or ‘Sambhogakaya’ symbol.

The Causal Body (Anandamaya Kosha) is the fifth and final sheath in Advaita Vedanta. It is simply another name for the Sambhogakaya, the Holy Spirit, and Shakti (specifically Iccha Shakti, meaning Divine Will, or Power). The goal of the highest Yoga, Divine Yoga, is to directly and immediately unite the “vine” of one’s soul (specifically the highest element of one’s soul, consciousness functioning as the free attention) with the Sambhogakaya, or Holy Spirit, or Shakti which the yogi receives as Grace, or Blessing/Blissing Clear-Light Energy (or Power).

For further reading:
http://www.electricalspirituality.co...stases-part-1/

http://www.electricalspirituality.co...bodies-part-2/

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sentient

The Causal Body (Anandamaya Kosha) is the fifth and final sheath in Advaita Vedanta. It is simply another name for the Sambhogakaya, the Holy Spirit, and Shakti (specifically Iccha Shakti, meaning Divine Will, or Power). The goal of the highest Yoga, Divine Yoga, is to directly and immediately unite the “vine” of one’s soul (specifically the highest element of one’s soul, consciousness functioning as the free attention) with the Sambhogakaya, or Holy Spirit, or Shakti which the yogi receives as Grace, or Blessing/Blissing Clear-Light Energy (or Power).

Thank you sentient for your post. This quote does confuse things. The Kosha's don't relate to the Buddhist Kayas.

The talk of ones soul is completely refuted in Buddhism.

In order to realize the Sambhogakaya one has to realize void=form the first part of the Heart Sutra. In two fold Buddhism this would be emptiness of self. Shakti is just the realization of form, not void=form.

In Advaita Vedanta the Anandamaya kosha is the innermost of the five koshas or "sheaths" that veil the Atman or Supreme Self. Unlike the next three more outer koshas, it constitutes the karana sarira or causal body. It is associated with the state of dreamless sleep and samadhi.

That is far different than the realization of the Sambhogakaya in Buddhism.

I would also disagree that the goal is to

Divine Yoga, is to directly and immediately unite the “vine” of one’s soul (specifically the highest element of one’s soul, consciousness functioning as the free attention) with the Sambhogakaya, or Holy Spirit, or Shakti which the yogi receives as Grace, or Blessing/Blissing Clear-Light Energy (or Power).

That is a dualistic teaching. The goal in some traditions of Hinduism is more to be One like Siva. You are Siva, there is no blessings, or power to receive because you are that. That being Universal Consciousness, all things.

I would also disagree with much in the articles you linked to. From a Mystical Christianity viewpoint the Father is emptiness not the Dharmakaya.

The Dharmakaya is Consciousness Itself, universal, timeless Awareness. It is the One Mind

Nothing in Buddhism would agree with the One Mind, it is more One Essence. That is a limited Hindu view.. more old Brahmanas.

Well, anyways.. thank you for your post and have a good day.